Rosecrans and Thomas

[trice]

I'm reading Grant's Reminiscences and have just gotten to Corinth where he complains about Rosecrans's refusal to follow orders. Grant says that he was tickled when Rosecrans was promoted because it saved him the trouble of having him relieved. Of course, Grant writes from the distance of twenty years, but he did not often criticize others by name. Following instructions is a pretty basic military skill.

Back in 1861, Grant thought Rosecrans would be one of the three great men for the Union in the war just beginning (the others were McClellan and Buell, so Grant was no better than looking through the fog to the future than anyone else). Rosecrans was undoubtedly brilliant and talented -- but loaded down with personality flaws like the hero of a Greek tragedy Before he ticked off Grant, Rosecrans had driven Stanton into a rage in May of 1862 Rosecrans saw quarreling with superiors as the proper way to act, and continued to feud throughout the war. In late 1864, his refusal to send A. J. Smith back to Sherman/Thomas almost led to disaster as Hood struck north. He also had a penchant for ripping the hide off subordinates with tongue-lashings in front of their staffs (which might have led to his disastrous defeat at Chickamauga).

Rosecrans continued to hold a grudge against Grant after the war. As Grant was dying of cancer and near destitute, Rosecrans was fighting to kill the General Grant Pension bill in Congress (he did say he never knew Grant was dying at the time).

I understand that "Pap" Thomas also did not measure up in Grant's eyes, but I haven't gotten to that part yet.

Grant was generally pretty even tempered, but he had two problems with Thomas:

1. after Shiloh, Grant was kicked sideways to become Halleck's "second-in-command" (a useless position with no power or authority) while Thomas was placed in temporary command of Grant's Army. Grant believed Thomas was maneuvering to take his command (not knowing that Halleck was the one he should have been worrying about) and
2. at Chattanooga, Grant believed (with good reason) that Thomas had deliberately treated him with insult and disdain when Grant arrived to take command

Grant had to choose between Thomas and Sherman when he moved to the top command in early 1864. He chose Sherman to command in the West, putting Sherman under him

Tim

 

[trice]

In hindsight, it doesn't matter. But in real life, hindsight is what doesn't matter.

All analysis of past events amounts to hindsight.

Stevenson's 10,000 man division was sent to Pemberton in Mississippi before Murfreesboro/Stones River, it was a transfer Davis ordered that Johnston and Bragg did not support and which Johnston blamed for Bragg's failure to win that battle. The troops that were sent to Johnston's Army of Relief in the Vicksburg Campaign were Breckenridge's division, not Stevenson's.

Yes, this is what I was referring to, and I apologize for the brain-burp of confusion. However, the description of Rosecrans action is actually correct for both situations.

In December 1862, Rosecrans deliberately waited until Stevenson was detached before starting his advance. In June 1862 Rosecrans again deliberately waited until troops were detached before starting his advance. In both cases, Rosecrans instructions required him to prevent detachments from Bragg to assist Pemberton.

Tim

 

[richard]

All analysis of past events amounts to hindsight.



Yes, this is what I was referring to, and I apologize for the brain-burp of confusion. However, the description of Rosecrans action is actually correct for both situations.

In December 1862, Rosecrans deliberately waited until Stevenson was detached before starting his advance. In June 1862 Rosecrans again deliberately waited until troops were detached before starting his advance. In both cases, Rosecrans instructions required him to prevent detachments from Bragg to assist Pemberton.

Tim

Tim, are you refering to June 1863 or June 1862?

 

[Dave Wilma]

I'm cautious about using personality flaws to disqualify or criticize a military leader. Indeed, brilliance might have its origins in what we regard as flaws. A modern historian with a psychiatry background has looked at medical records for presidents and asserts that a little craziness, e.g., bipolar disorder, can be good for a leader. Some brilliant commanders suck lemons and hold their hands over their heads to balance the forces in their bodies. Other wear ivory handled revolvers on their hips. What we need to examine objectively is performance and results.

 

[leftyhunter]

They were both meticulous planners, reluctant to act until everything and every man was available and ready for action.
Just before his Chattanooga Campaign, Rosecrans, refused to advance, because he was convinced that he should not advance until After Grant had taken Vicksburg and nothing Lincoln, Halleck or Stanton said or ordered could convince him otherwise I have heard it argued that it was just one of his many excuses not to move until he was ready. But was this true? From all I can learn this conviction seemed sincere.

I think your on the right track. The same criticism was made just prior to Rosecrans offensive of Stone River.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Ole, I agree with your first paragraph completely but not the second, He was certainly aggresive but he has never struck me as a quick learner. His greatness lies primarily in the fact that he had the complete support of Lincoln and an apparently endless supply of manpower. No other union general would have politically survived after Spotsylvania without it.

An interesting point. Certainly worthy of another thread. The Overland campaign did not win Grant a lot of fans.
Leftyhunter

 

[trice]

Tim, are you refering to June 1863 or June 1862?

1863. Sorry about that. Too much typing while doing other things lately.

Tim