What is this? Requesting help identifying a cannon

[Anonymous7698]

So the trick is that Knox never recorded bringing any "8 pounders" - only four "9 pounders". He also recorded losing only one gun along the way - apparently an 18 pounder.

I've looked at this blogsite previously but hadn't noticed this detailed post on the Knox Expedition. You might find it interesting. And the mystery regarding your gun just gets deeper.

How Many Cannon Did Henry Knox Transport?

Another question about Col. Henry Knox ’s mission to northern New York to collect artillery for the siege of Boston is how many pieces ...

boston1775.blogspot.com

I believe the Fort Ti Facebook post mentioned it, but because the French pound was heavier than the English pound, a French 8 pounder and a British 9 pounder were almost the same bore size, and the British would sometimes call a French 8 pounder a 9 pounder. That said, I agree it is extremely unlikely that it is from Knox's expedition, but the proximity to its route is certainly interesting.

Of course, between the French and Indian War, American Revolution, and War of 1812 there are plenty of ways a cannon could have ended up in southern Massachusetts.

 

[Anonymous7698]

No matter what it turns out to be I hope it gets properly preserved . I've been to Ticonderoga twice and much of the artillery is Spanish and not appropriate for the Fort but it is still nice to examine. It is an outstanding place to visit .
On the other hand is the reconstructed Fort William Henry which is more of a tourist trap . I was looking at a rusted tube laying on the ground and rusting away. An employee saw me and told me that it had been recovered from Lake George. I wanted to ask him why they were allowing it to rust away but held my tongue .

I really hope so too. The town doesn't seem interested in it, unfortunately. That's sad to me, both because of its history, but also because until 2003 or so, the owner would always set it off at noon on the 4th of July. I looked forward to that every year.

However, I did reach out to the selectboard and they at least said they don't plan on scrapping it, thank goodness. They said they reached out to the Shelburne Museum about (which seems like an odd choice, but anything is better than letting it rust to oblivion). I suggested they also reach out to Fort Ti and the Lake Champlain Maritime Museum (the latter has a replica of the gunboat Philadelphia, which carried two 9 pounders, so that's why I figured they might be interested). I also threw in a line saying I'd be happy to take it if the town just wanted it gone, but sadly they didn't bite on that!

 

[Belfoured]

I believe the Fort Ti Facebook post mentioned it, but because the French pound was heavier than the English pound, a French 8 pounder and a British 9 pounder were almost the same bore size, and the British would sometimes call a French 8 pounder a 9 pounder. That said, I agree it is extremely unlikely that it is from Knox's expedition, but the proximity to its route is certainly interesting.

Of course, between the French and Indian War, American Revolution, and War of 1812 there are plenty of ways a cannon could have ended up in southern Massachusetts.

because the French pound was heavier than the English pound, a French 8 pounder and a British 9 pounder were almost the same bore size, and the British would sometimes call a French 8 pounder a 9 pounder.

No question. I mentioned it because much of Knox's knowledge was based on "book larnin'" - primarily Muller's treatise - and on his experience as a member of the volunteer artillery company "The Train" in Boston during the early 1770's. IIRC, they drilled on the Common with their 3 lb bronze field pieces. What he knew about the differences between French and British systems probably stemmed from his conversations with the British troops stationed in Boston.

 

[drezac]

I looked at a table in the 1841 Ordnance manual that lists foreign guns. while the bore indicates it could be a 9 or 8 pdr, the length did not match any of the English or French guns in the table.

 

[Belfoured]

I looked at a table in the 1841 Ordnance manual that lists foreign guns. while the bore indicates it could be a 9 or 8 pdr, the length did not match any of the English or French guns in the table.

Agree. It would approximately match those calibers for 18th century manufactures.

 

[Anonymous7698]

I looked at a table in the 1841 Ordnance manual that lists foreign guns. while the bore indicates it could be a 9 or 8 pdr, the length did not match any of the English or French guns in the table.

That's really good information, thank you. I'm beginning to think it could be a Swedish Finbanker cannon. They were apparently sort of the period equivalent of the AK-47 - sold to anyone who wanted one and turned up pretty much everywhere, although apparently a lot went to the Dutch. There is an 18 pounder that is in the Royal Armouries collection and while it's obviously a different caliber, you can see a lot of similarities in the design - smoothly tapering barrel with no steps at the reinforce rings, no vent block around the touch hole, and lots and lots of rings/fillets on the astragals.

Gun - 18-pounder, smooth-bore, Swedish The barrel has numerous mouldings. - Royal Armouries collections

The gun is of Swedish manufacture most likely perhaps at Finspang (Finspong) hence its reference to being of the 'Finbanker' type. These guns are characterised by having many barrel rings. The base ring has an ogee on the muzzle side

collections.royalarmouries.org

Screenshot in case the link breaks:

Apparently the Royal Armouries has a 9 pounder Finbanker as well, but no photo online. I'll have to see if I can request a photo: https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-2962

There's a post on another forum (https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/my-new-models-are-progressing.39751/) discussing dating Finbanker guns based on trunnion location.

Errata on my previous post. The patterns of the three finabanker patterns which is found in ZA is as follows.

1650 Pattern. Shorter barrel than the other two patterns with almost no taper from breech to muzzle with a long noticable muzzle swell. Trunnions was located just under the centreline of the bore.
1680 Pattern. Longest barrel of the three patterns with a heavy taper from breech to muzzle, with almost no muzzle swell. Trunnions was a bit lower than the 1650 Pattern. Almost halfway between the bottom of the barrel and the bore centreline
1740 Pattern. Total length was a smidgen less than the 1680 pattern, taper (in my opinion) is the better balanced of the three with also the better balanced muzzle swell (also in my opinion)Trunnions located almost at the very bottom with the bottom of the trunnion and bottom of the barrel almost inline.

"My" gun has the trunnions at the very bottom, which, if the post above is to be believed, and if it's a Finbanker, would suggest the 1740 pattern. Unfortunately, I haven't found any period or scholarly sources that spell out the different patterns in detail and what dates they were manufactured.

As an interesting aside, the Alamo museum did a research project and concluded that the famous 18 pounder used at the siege was very likely actually a 9 pounder Swedish Finbanker bored out to 18 pounder caliber. Now there's a terrifying thought from a safety perspective!

I went back and took more pictures and measurements yesterday and I'm working on doing better CAD drawings to show the decorative elements a bit more clearly. Hopefully I'll have those done this weekend.

 

[Anonymous7698]

I received an e-mail back from the curator of Fort Ti. He also independently seems to think it may be a Swedish gun, and an old one at that. Hurray, I'm not totally crazy !

Very interesting gun. I'd agree with you that it's probably a 9 pounder based on the bore. That appears to be a pretty old gun, my guess would be late 17th century or very early 18th century from what I can see. Is there nothing on the face of the trunnions?

The best compilation of British gun details, measurements, weights, etc. is here: https://sha.org/assets/documents/British Smooth-Bore Artillery - English.pdf although this pre-dates the period of this work, so it's hard to say.

Those series of parallel bands fore and aft of the trunnions are a good mark of an earlier gun. It could possibly be Swedish. Swedish guns were used in America, one I believe was even found on the Gondola Philadelphia from the Battle of Valcour Island. Compare to a few Swedish guns we have here at Ticonderoga: https://fortticonderoga.pastperfectonline.com/Search?search_criteria=swedish&onlyimages=false Often they have the F mark of the Finspång foundry on the trunnion, but I think there were other foundries too.

I'll see if we have anything more that might be helpful, but this appears quite old and outside of much of the writing I have seen on 18th century guns.

 

[Kurtlg]

I received an e-mail back from the curator of Fort Ti. He also independently seems to think it may be a Swedish gun, and an old one at that. Hurray, I'm not totally crazy !

Great job ! Sounds like the identification is solved . The mystery now is how did it get where it was found?

 

[Anonymous7698]

Great job ! Sounds like the identification is solved . The mystery now is how did it get where it was found?

I'm not sure I'd call it totally solved yet! I'd like to narrow down the date range some more at least. I reached out to a guy in the Netherlands who did some research on an island in the Carribean, including a discussion on some Swedish guns found there. I'm hoping he can point me to some sources that give more details about them. I'm also going to try to reach out to the Swedish Army Museum to see if they have any more information.

As far as how it got to Massachusetts, I sadly doubt I'll ever find that out. It could have been used by the colonists during the Indian wars, Revolution, or War of 1812 and got lost in transit. It could have been captured from the French or British (like I said, these Swedish guns apparently got around), or hidden from the British before or during the Revolution and forgotten. Maybe it was used as a training gun by a local militia or volunteer unit, possibly as late as the Civil War. Maybe it was anti-pirate armament on a merchantman or whaler. Or hell, maybe it lived its service life in Europe or the Carribean, some rich guy bought it in the late 1800s or early 1900s as a conversation piece, and then he died and everyone forgot about it. The possibilities are endless!!

After being buried for decades or centuries, I assume everyone just forgot it was there. And with no serial number or any unique marks, tying any records to a specific gun would be next to impossible, unless someone happens to find a diary entry or newspaper article about an iron 9 pounder that got dropped in the woods (if you do, let me know!).

 

[Anonymous7698]

As promised, here are some improved drawings of the cannon. You'll notice a couple of the longer dimensions are different by half an inch or so from my first try. I took what I believe are more accurate measurements this time, but they still aren't super high precision. Additionally, due to the corrosion and paint, I had to take a certain amount of artistic license in trying to show what I think the decorative elements originally looked like.

 

[Biscoitos]

I'm trying to identify an old cannon and was hoping the folks on here could help. I originally thought it was Civil War era (hence why I'm posting here), but I'm now thinking it may be older than that. Still, hopefully someone can provide some insight or direction. The only history I know of the cannon is that it was owned by an individual in Massachusetts who brought it with him when he moved to Vermont, and then it was given to the town when he died (2004). Due to the deteriorating condition of the carriage (obviously a modern reconstruction) they have taken it off display and I am trying to figure out what it is so I can hopefully convince them to restore and preserve it, or at least give it to a museum or reenactment group.
View attachment 475174

There are no obvious visible markings on either the muzzle or the breech. There is something that may be an "X" on the right trunnion, but it may also just be a casting artifact.
View attachment 475167

I have attached several photos of the cannon, as well as a CAD drawing with relevant dimensions I threw together last night (apologies for the quality, due to technical issues it's a scan of a printout of a CAD file). The dimensions are all in inches. Given the condition of the gun and the fact I took the measurements by myself in the rain, they should probably be viewed as somewhat approximate.

In case the files don't post, here are the high points.
Material - Iron
Bore - Smoothbore, approximately 4.16 inches in diameter (due to rust and wear at the muzzle, average of several measurements between 4.10 and 4.19 inches). Suggests a 9 pounder.
Overall length (including the knob/button) - 93 inches
Length from muzzle to base ring - 87 inches (drawing says 86.29 inches, that's an artifact of me adding in a fillet to smooth the lines out)
Bore length/length to touch hole - 82 inches

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

View attachment 475168

View attachment 475169

View attachment 475170

View attachment 475171

View attachment 475172

View attachment 475173uch.

Carriage looks Rev War period, not that it means much.

 

[Anonymous7698]

Carriage looks Rev War period, not that it means much.

I think you're right that it's supposed to look like it's from the Revolutionary War, but it's definitely a modern reconstruction made with modern bolts and hardware.

 

[Biscoitos]

I think you're right that it's supposed to look like it's from the Revolutionary War, but it's definitely a modern reconstruction made with modern bolts and hardwa

Yes, I was thinking that the modern carriage might have been made based on the Rev War era because the modern carriage makers had some correct information about the cannon's age, origins, etc.

 

[Anonymous7698]

Yes, I was thinking that the modern carriage might have been made based on the Rev War era because the modern carriage makers had some correct information about the cannon's age, origins, etc.

OK, I'm following you now. I got the sense from the 2003 article (see post #14) that no one really had any idea about the history of the gun, but it's certainly possible that whoever built the carriage knew something they didn't pass along to other people. I am in contact with the curator of Fort Ti, an expert in the UK, and also the Swedish Army Museum (on the assumption is a Swedish Finbanker-type gun). I'm hopeful one of them can help ID it more definitively.

 

[Belfoured]

OK, I'm following you now. I got the sense from the 2003 article (see post #14) that no one really had any idea about the history of the gun, but it's certainly possible that whoever built the carriage knew something they didn't pass along to other people. I am in contact with the curator of Fort Ti, an expert in the UK, and also the Swedish Army Museum (on the assumption is a Swedish Finbanker-type gun). I'm hopeful one of them can help ID it more definitively.

As an aside, the British began converting to the block trail carriage in the 1790's and gradually introduced them pretty much across the board by the War of 1812. The US was behind in that regard.

 

[Anonymous7698]

Success! Or at least as much info as I think I can reasonably expect to learn about this cannon. Full credit for this research goes to Ruth Ryhnas Brown of Basiliscoe (https://www.basiliscoe.com/). She was extremely helpful and her research was most informative!

Here's a summary of what she found.

Description: Iron Finbanker-type cannon

Place of Manufacture: Sweden, likely in Åkers or Huseby Bruk

Date of Manufacture: c. 1690 - 1710

Caliber: Probably 8 Dutch pounds, although could possibly be a well worn Dutch 6 pounder. 8 Dutch pounds would be 8.7144 English pounds, so it likely would have been treated as a 9 pounder in the US.

Markings: What looks like an X on the right trunnion face is actually a stylized W overlaid on an A. This is probably the first initial of Jacob Wattrang's surname, combined with the first letter of his foundry, Åkers. The left trunnion face was likely marked with either an HB or a 3 or 4 digit date, but is now illegible. The screenshot below is from "Relics of a Forgotten Colony: The Cannon and Anchors of St. Eustatius" by Ruud Stelten and shows a similar cannon found on Sint Eustatius in the Caribbean, the mark on its right trunnion, and an artist's interpretation of what the mark originally was.

As for why a Swedish gun would use a Dutch caliber, the short answer is that the Dutch were the largest customers. Quoting from the report that Ruth Brown was kind enough to write for me:

The Swedish iron industry owed its existence to the Dutch state and its struggle for independence against Catholic Hapsburg Spain. The freedom of the United Provinces of the Netherlands' depended on them having guns to arm its walled cities, its shipping and its army, as well as supplying its markets through which much of the wealth of the Netherlands flowed.

Cast-iron gun-founding began on a large scale in southern England in the mid-16th century and within a few years cast-iron ordnance were being exported abroad, many to Holland. However the industry underwent increasing restrictions in the early years of the 17th century as the English government tried both to control and make money from this trade by limiting how many guns could be exported and to whom, as well as forcing people pay for licences (Brown 2011). By the 1610s, Dutch merchants became frustrated by the lack of a regular, reliable supply of cheap iron ordnance. Bronze foundries were set up in several Dutch towns but the real need was for iron guns in large numbers and this demand could not be met within the borders of the new Netherlands; the iron-rich area round Liege had been devastated during the wars and was now under Spanish control. Numbers of Protestant ironworkers had fled to "free Netherlands" still under Dutch control but where they could not use their skills. However Sweden possessed all that was necessary for large-scale and successful cannon production; rich seams of iron ore, wood for charcoal, water for driving power and a sympathetic, Protestant government (Cedelof 1988, 132-3).

Finspång or Finspong ironworks was initially founded in the late 16th century but failed to thrive until the 1620s when Louis de Geer, a refugee from Liege who re-established himself in Holland, invested heavily in the ironworks. De Geer, working with his relatives, the Tripp family and the warrior king Gustav Adolphus, oversaw the setting up of successful gun-founding works across Sweden, exporting much of the produce back to the Netherlands (Malmberg 1963). His brothers-in-law, Elias and Jacob Tripp, were the most important arms dealers in Europe, as well as being major shareholders in the VOC (the Dutch East India Company). Increasingly trading companies, of which the VOC was the most famous, needed guns to arm their ships, defend their settlements and to impress, bribe or threaten foreign rulers. Later they sold the guns abroad.

.......

When De Geer got the Finspång works going, he wanted a suitable product to sell and copied the type of gun being cast in England at that time. This had two broad bands on either side of the trunnions. This pattern was replaced in England by the 1640s but it remained in production in Sweden. These guns, now called finbankers, were used to arm merchant ships such as those of the famous Dutch East India Company for two centuries, as well as being sold both in Netherlands and around the world (Brinck 2200). They were also used by the Danish and French fleets in the latter part of the 17th century (Frantzen 2001). In the 17th century, Finspång's finbankers were exported to the Netherlands, but they were also cast in other Swedish foundries, including at Huseby, Akers and Ehrendahl. Finbankers were produced from the 17th century to the 18th century in Sweden. From c. 1720, finbanker with double bands began to be replaced by cannons with only one band either side of trunnion (Frantzen 2001).

As alluded to in the report, these guns were used all over the world for a long period of time by governments, merchants, pirates, slavers, and others, so figuring out how and when this particular gun made it to Massachusetts would be extremely difficult. It is worth noting though that, as mentioned above, very similar cannons have been found on the island of Sint Eustatius. Sint Eustatius was one of the only places willing to sell armaments to the colonies during the first few years of the American Revolution. So while I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever (a point I want to emphasize), it is entirely possible that the cannon was acquired during the American Revolution. It makes for a good story anyway.

Now the town just needs to find a good home for this gun....

 

[Kurtlg]

Success! Or at least as much info as I think I can reasonably expect to learn about this cannon. Full credit for this research goes to Ruth Ryhnas Brown of Basiliscoe (https://www.basiliscoe.com/). She was extremely helpful and her research was most informative!

Here's a summary of what she found.

Description: Iron Finbanker-type cannon

Place of Manufacture: Sweden, likely in Åkers or Huseby Bruk

Date of Manufacture: c. 1690 - 1710

Caliber: Probably 8 Dutch pounds, although could possibly be a well worn Dutch 6 pounder. 8 Dutch pounds would be 8.7144 English pounds, so it likely would have been treated as a 9 pounder in the US.

Markings: What looks like an X on the right trunnion face is actually a stylized W overlaid on an A. This is probably the first initial of Jacob Wattrang's surname, combined with the first letter of his foundry, Åkers. The left trunnion face was likely marked with either an HB or a 3 or 4 digit date, but is now illegible. The screenshot below is from "Relics of a Forgotten Colony: The Cannon and Anchors of St. Eustatius" by Ruud Stelten and shows a similar cannon found on Sint Eustatius in the Caribbean, the mark on its right trunnion, and an artist's interpretation of what the mark originally was.

View attachment 476775

As for why a Swedish gun would use a Dutch caliber, the short answer is that the Dutch were the largest customers. Quoting from the report that Ruth Brown was kind enough to write for me:


As alluded to in the report, these guns were used all over the world for a long period of time by governments, merchants, pirates, slavers, and others, so figuring out how and when this particular gun made it to Massachusetts would be extremely difficult. It is worth noting though that, as mentioned above, very similar cannons have been found on the island of Sint Eustatius. Sint Eustatius was one of the only places willing to sell armaments to the colonies during the first few years of the American Revolution. So while I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever (a point I want to emphasize), it is entirely possible that the cannon was acquired during the American Revolution. It makes for a good story anyway.

Now the town just needs to find a good home for this gun....

Great job. You are the Sherlock Holmes of cannon investigation . Too bad we will probably never know it's history .

 

[Story]

Success!

Outstanding diligence!

Flip the question around now - see what Dutch colonies in the Caribbean 1) lost a 9lber gun to the British or 2) after surrendering their ordnance to the British, the British then gave up their ordnance to a Yankee raid or 3) outfitted a merchantman subsequently lost to a Yankee privateer.

You're doing well finding these historical needles in the haystack of time, what's one or a dozen more?