What is this? Requesting help identifying a cannon

[Anonymous7698]

I'm trying to identify an old cannon and was hoping the folks on here could help. I originally thought it was Civil War era (hence why I'm posting here), but I'm now thinking it may be older than that. Still, hopefully someone can provide some insight or direction. The only history I know of the cannon is that it was owned by an individual in Massachusetts who brought it with him when he moved to Vermont, and then it was given to the town when he died (2004). Due to the deteriorating condition of the carriage (obviously a modern reconstruction) they have taken it off display and I am trying to figure out what it is so I can hopefully convince them to restore and preserve it, or at least give it to a museum or reenactment group.

There are no obvious visible markings on either the muzzle or the breech. There is something that may be an "X" on the right trunnion, but it may also just be a casting artifact.

I have attached several photos of the cannon, as well as a CAD drawing with relevant dimensions I threw together last night (apologies for the quality, due to technical issues it's a scan of a printout of a CAD file). The dimensions are all in inches. Given the condition of the gun and the fact I took the measurements by myself in the rain, they should probably be viewed as somewhat approximate.

In case the files don't post, here are the high points.
Material - Iron
Bore - Smoothbore, approximately 4.16 inches in diameter (due to rust and wear at the muzzle, average of several measurements between 4.10 and 4.19 inches). Suggests a 9 pounder.
Overall length (including the knob/button) - 93 inches
Length from muzzle to base ring - 87 inches (drawing says 86.29 inches, that's an artifact of me adding in a fillet to smooth the lines out)
Bore length/length to touch hole - 82 inches

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jepridgen]

Wow, that's an interesting mystery you have there. It almost looks like a naval piece. Someone may come along and disprove me, but it definitely does not look ACW. It for sure wasn't manufactured during that timeframe.

 

[Belfoured]

Wow, that's an interesting mystery you have there. It almost looks like a naval piece. Someone may come along and disprove me, but it definitely does not look ACW. It for sure wasn't manufactured during that timeframe.

I agree - to me, the description suggests an 18th century "short" 9 lb iron gun used by the Royal Navy. The image, not quite as much.

 

[lupaglupa]

I have no expertise but I love a mystery so I'm following along to see what we find out.

 

[Anonymous7698]

Yeah, after I took some measurements and started looking into it some more I also started to think it might be a naval gun. Based on what I see online, British 9 pounders seemed to be between 7 and 9 feet long, so the length fits. I'm really perplexed at the lack of markings though. Even with the paint and corrosion, I would have expected the remnants of some sort of crest to be visible. I'm going to go back tomorrow and double check to make sure I didn't miss anything.

 

[Kurtlg]

Very interesting. I know Henry Knox captured 4 iron 9 pounders at Fort Ticonderoga.

 

[Belfoured]

Yeah, after I took some measurements and started looking into it some more I also started to think it might be a naval gun. Based on what I see online, British 9 pounders seemed to be between 7 and 9 feet long, so the length fits. I'm really perplexed at the lack of markings though. Even with the paint and corrosion, I would have expected the remnants of some sort of crest to be visible. I'm going to go back tomorrow and double check to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Agree - that's why I suggested a "short" 9 lb gun - under 8 feet, although barely and it might be a standard "8 footer". It's iron and it appears to have the routine alignment of astragal/fillets and reinforce rings, although it's difficult to confirm. As you suggest, the apparent absence of a royal crest (e.g., "GR 2"), the name of the founder, and the "broad arrow" raises big doubts.

 

[Kurtlg]

Could this be a French iron 8 pounder that was captured when the British captured Fort Ticonderoga from the French? 1759?
I found a Facebook page from Fort Ticonderoga that discussed finding a French iron 8 pounder that was excavated . The date of the page is October 10 ,2020.

 

[Anonymous7698]

Very interesting. I know Henry Knox captured 4 iron 9 pounders at Fort Ticonderoga.

Oh, that's interesting, I didn't know that. I sent the curator at Fort Ti an e-mail to see if he knows of any resources that I could use to try to identify the cannon. Does anyone know of any other places I could reach out to? Or perhaps forums dedicated to cannons/artillery?

 

[lupaglupa]

Very interesting. I know Henry Knox captured 4 iron 9 pounders at Fort Ticonderoga.

And dragged them 300 miles! I keep telling my husband we need to drive the route someday. There are historic markers all long Knox's route telling the story.

 

[Belfoured]

Could this be a French iron 8 pounder that was captured when the British captured Fort Ticonderoga from the French? 1759?
I found a Facebook page from Fort Ticonderoga that discussed finding a French iron 8 pounder that was excavated . The date of the page is October 10 ,2020.

Could this be a French iron 8 pounder that was captured when the British captured Fort Ticonderoga from the French?

The problem with that is it should have been a Valliere gun - even more "decorative" ornamentation than the British (including the cascabel) and dolphins/handles on the tube. This gun also is about 10" under the standard length (although it could be a "short" version.) Is there a photo of the excavation?

 

[Kurtlg]

The problem with that is it should have been a Valliere gun - even more "decorative" ornamentation than the British (including the cascabel) and dolphins/handles on the tube. This gun also is about 10" under the standard length (although it could be a "short" version.) Is there a photo of the excavation?

There is a photo of the excavated tube and it appears to be plain rather than decorative .

 

[Kurtlg]

Oh, that's interesting, I didn't know that. I sent the curator at Fort Ti an e-mail to see if he knows of any resources that I could use to try to identify the cannon. Does anyone know of any other places I could reach out to? Or perhaps forums dedicated to cannons/artillery?

That sounds like a good start .

 

[Anonymous7698]

Oh!! I just found this article: https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/news/2003/10/23/town-agrees-to-buy-cannon/50446615007/! I was trying to track down where the owner lived in Massachusetts before he moved to Vermont (turns out it was Hampden, which is southeast of Springfield right on the Connecticut border) and apparently at one time the owner had agreed to sell the cannon to the town of Lakeville, MA. Apparently this deal fell through, since the cannon stayed in Vermont, but importantly the article described where the cannon was found!

"Found in the woods of Hampden 25 years ago [edit - article published October 2003, so cannon found around 1978] and later moved to Vermont the cannon will be Lakeville's long-awaited replacement for the World War I cannon donated to a scrap metal drive during World War II.

But next to nothing is known about the age or history of the cannon.

Daniel Knowles a former Hampden police officer has the cannon on display outside his Brownsville Vt. home. He found the barrel buried open end down on a large wooded parcel in Hampden. He tripped over it while pursuing a suspect through the woods he said.

Mr. Knowles returned to the site without permission from the owner and spent six hours unearthing the cannon with the help of a tow truck.

He wasn't concerned about the owners because the property was so large -- 200 or 300 acres he guessed -- that "they didn't even know it was there. They didn't even look at the property" he said."

Interestingly, if you look at a map of Henry Knox's route from Ticonderoga to Boston, it passed through Springfield, MA and Wilbraham, MA.

Per Wikipedia, the Henry Knox Trail route marker in Wilbraham, MA is at the intersection of Route 20 and Main Street. That is just 6 miles from the center of Hampden, MA and a mere 3.7 miles from the Wilbraham/Hampden town line. So while it's certainly not likely (I don't want to get carried away), it's also not totally impossible that it could be a cannon that "escaped" from Henry Knox's "noble train of artillery". Now isn't that a tantalizing thought!

 

[Kurtlg]

I have no clue how to post the video but if you go to YouTube and enter "French 8 pound cannon from Fort Ticonderoga some videos pop up. The first one is 4:47 long and shows the cannon .

 

[Anonymous7698]

Could this be a French iron 8 pounder that was captured when the British captured Fort Ticonderoga from the French? 1759?
I found a Facebook page from Fort Ticonderoga that discussed finding a French iron 8 pounder that was excavated . The date of the page is October 10 ,2020.

Is this the post you were talking about?

4K views · 208 reactions | Explore the legacy of captured French cannons within British-held Fort Ticonderoga. See the one complete cannon found within the ruins of Fort Ticonderoga that informs our historic portrayal of 1774 today. | Fort Ticonderog

Explore the legacy of captured French cannons within British-held Fort Ticonderoga. See the one complete cannon found within the ruins of Fort Ticonderoga that informs our historic portrayal of 1774...

www.facebook.com

The cannon at 1:43 does look somewhat similar, although without measurements it's impossible to tell. And 8 French pounds would be 8.63 English pounds, so the bore size would be close to an English 9 pounder.

 

[Kurtlg]

Is this the post you were talking about?

4K views · 208 reactions | Explore the legacy of captured French cannons within British-held Fort Ticonderoga. See the one complete cannon found within the ruins of Fort Ticonderoga that informs our historic portrayal of 1774 today. | Fort Ticonderog

Explore the legacy of captured French cannons within British-held Fort Ticonderoga. See the one complete cannon found within the ruins of Fort Ticonderoga that informs our historic portrayal of 1774...

www.facebook.com

The cannon at 1:43 does look somewhat similar, although without measurements it's impossible to tell. And 8 French pounds would be 8.63 English pounds, so the bore size would be close to an English 9 pounder.

Yes that's it.

 

[Belfoured]

Is this the post you were talking about?

4K views · 208 reactions | Explore the legacy of captured French cannons within British-held Fort Ticonderoga. See the one complete cannon found within the ruins of Fort Ticonderoga that informs our historic portrayal of 1774 today. | Fort Ticonderog

Explore the legacy of captured French cannons within British-held Fort Ticonderoga. See the one complete cannon found within the ruins of Fort Ticonderoga that informs our historic portrayal of 1774...

www.facebook.com

The cannon at 1:43 does look somewhat similar, although without measurements it's impossible to tell. And 8 French pounds would be 8.63 English pounds, so the bore size would be close to an English 9 pounder.

Thanks for finding that. If they confirmed that it's French, then it's likely a French naval design which was not under Valliere's control. Much of the French ordnance in NA at the start of the war was naval but most also was of larger calibers starting at 12 lb and ranging up through 18 lb and 24 lb. The stats I've seen indicate there also were a few smaller iron guns of 6 lb and 4 lb. Oddly, 8 lb guns weren't included in those (As an aside, although the Valliere system adopted bronze as the metal source, I've seen iron guns that are identified as fitting the system).

 

[Belfoured]

Oh!! I just found this article: https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/news/2003/10/23/town-agrees-to-buy-cannon/50446615007/! I was trying to track down where the owner lived in Massachusetts before he moved to Vermont (turns out it was Hampden, which is southeast of Springfield right on the Connecticut border) and apparently at one time the owner had agreed to sell the cannon to the town of Lakeville, MA. Apparently this deal fell through, since the cannon stayed in Vermont, but importantly the article described where the cannon was found!


Interestingly, if you look at a map of Henry Knox's route from Ticonderoga to Boston, it passed through Springfield, MA and Wilbraham, MA.

Per Wikipedia, the Henry Knox Trail route marker in Wilbraham, MA is at the intersection of Route 20 and Main Street. That is just 6 miles from the center of Hampden, MA and a mere 3.7 miles from the Wilbraham/Hampden town line. So while it's certainly not likely (I don't want to get carried away), it's also not totally impossible that it could be a cannon that "escaped" from Henry Knox's "noble train of artillery". Now isn't that a tantalizing thought!

So the trick is that Knox never recorded bringing any "8 pounders" - only four "9 pounders". He also recorded losing only one gun along the way - apparently an 18 pounder.

I've looked at this blogsite previously but hadn't noticed this detailed post on the Knox Expedition. You might find it interesting. And the mystery regarding your gun just gets deeper.

How Many Cannon Did Henry Knox Transport?

Another question about Col. Henry Knox ’s mission to northern New York to collect artillery for the siege of Boston is how many pieces ...

boston1775.blogspot.com

 

[Kurtlg]

No matter what it turns out to be I hope it gets properly preserved . I've been to Ticonderoga twice and much of the artillery is Spanish and not appropriate for the Fort but it is still nice to examine. It is an outstanding place to visit .
On the other hand is the reconstructed Fort William Henry which is more of a tourist trap . I was looking at a rusted tube laying on the ground and rusting away. An employee saw me and told me that it had been recovered from Lake George. I wanted to ask him why they were allowing it to rust away but held my tongue .