Request Information on Shul Enfield

[James N.]

Since rifles like yours WERE imported for use during the war, it's certainly possible and even likely yours was one of them - and even if cut down, you certainly scored a bargain at the price!

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

Many thanks Garyrock. You are correct speculating about the Philadelphia stamp being on the breach
Do you think the trigger guard is correct? Someone commented that it didn't look correct

It is the original trigger guard, but the front bow has been damaged or intentionally reshaped. The screw in the front extension is not correct, but was probably installed to pull the guard back down flush to the stock.

 

[Woods-walker]

To admittedly grossly simplify a complex subject, Enfield is an industrial town in England where there was (is?) located the National Armory that produced arms for the British Empire. They were considered among the best or THE best percussion arms at the time and therefore highly desirable by both the Union and the Confederacy. However, strict neutrality prevented the British Government from selling arms to either belligerent, so it was English private gunmakers who stepped up to answer the demand, selling freely (but usually covertly) guns of this design to both sides. Primarily they came in two lengths, longer so-called "3 band" for infantry and shorter "2 band" for artillery and often cavalry use. (The designation refers to the number of barrel bands used to hold the barrel to the stock; therefore the length of the barrel.)

Thanks for the crash course in schooling. I knew there were three and two band but that's about the extent of it. Much appreciated

 

[Woods-walker]

Since rifles like yours WERE imported for use during the war, it's certainly possible and even likely yours was one of them - and even if cut down, you certainly scored a bargain at the price!

Many thanks. My wife bought it for me back in the late 70's early 80s. Although appreciated , I pretty much ignored it thinking that because it's German made and given the $ it wasn't worth much more that the seller wanted. But to me it's a beautiful wall hanger rifle - and a gift - so I love it as much as a high $ one.

 

[Woods-walker]

It is the original trigger guard, but the front bow has been damaged or intentionally reshaped. The screw in the front extension is not correct, but was probably installed to pull the guard back down flush to the stock.

Thank you so much. Everyone has been great!!!!!

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

The German Federal Navy existed for only five years, from 1848 to 1853, created when war with the Danes threatened. One thousand, Two Hundred (1,200) of these muskets were made for this force based one the longer Prussian Model 1809 and 1839 muskets, but a bit shorter. About 800 of these muskets were imported and acquired by the City of Philadelphia for use by the city's Home Guard. These are pretty scarce, and I will post photos of one of the two I have owned. You can see they were originally three banded and yours was shortened, likely post-war, so that the front double band nose cap is no longer there, the sling swivels removed, and the trigger guard on yours has been reworked.
These have a serial number stamped in the wood near the butt, as you can see in the one photo.

 

[Woods-walker]

Jeff - Excellent! Your photos show markings that are on mine but to date I had been unable to identify.
I appreciate that a lot.... now that I have a clear photo of those previously unidentifiable markings.
I also see in your excellent photos markings I had not noticed on mine.
It's 10:00 PM here now, so I will take a closer look at mine in the daylight tomorrow to compare to your photos. I had not noticed the serial number in the stock and am very interested in checking that out tomorrow.
I live in Spotsylvania Virginia. So somehow the rifle made its way here from Philadelphia. I will spend the winter researching Philadelphia regiments that might have carried that rifle. I know a large number of people from that area moved here before and especially after the war (inexpensive land. They're still coming lol)
Regards

 

[thomas aagaard]

I can't help notice that none of the weapons woods-walker and Jeff shown got a rear sight...

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I can't help notice that none of the weapons woods-walker and Jeff shown got a rear sight...

These were smoothbore muskets, and traditionally, these do not have rear sights, and so these were not made with rear sights. It is true that the Prussian muskets on which these were based did have block shaped rear signts on the barrel tang - here is a photo of the lock area of a SUHL made model 1809 which does show it has this block sight.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Jeff - Excellent! Your photos show markings that are on mine but to date I had been unable to identify.
I appreciate that a lot.... now that I have a clear photo of those previously unidentifiable markings.
I also see in your excellent photos markings I had not noticed on mine.
It's 10:00 PM here now, so I will take a closer look at mine in the daylight tomorrow to compare to your photos. I had not noticed the serial number in the stock and am very interested in checking that out tomorrow.
I live in Spotsylvania Virginia. So somehow the rifle made its way here from Philadelphia. I will spend the winter researching Philadelphia regiments that might have carried that rifle. I know a large number of people from that area moved here before and especially after the war (inexpensive land. They're still coming lol)
Regards

At the time they were imported, they were out of date, smoothbore, large-caliber, used weapons, and so not coveted by any soldiers. They were sure not given to the elite Philadelphia militia troops, and I've always understood these went to the "Home Guard" which would not be expecting to be mustered into the federal service. The Home Guard wasn't the same as Air Raid Wardens, but they weren't front line troops, either!

 

[Woods-walker]

I can't help notice that none of the weapons woods-walker and Jeff shown got a rear sight...

I can't help notice that none of the weapons woods-walker and Jeff shown got a rear sight...

Thomas - great point. I am by no means a weapon expert. I was wondering about the lack of rear sights too. We'll have to leave it to the experts to answer. I would presume it might have something to do with the limited range of these old rifles. I know the Wentworth

 

[thomas aagaard]

These were smoothbore muskets, and traditionally, these do not have rear sights, and so these were not made with rear sights. It is true that the Prussian muskets on which these were based did have block shaped rear signts on the barrel tang - here is a photo of the lock area of a SUHL made model 1809 which does show it has this block sight.View attachment 387312

That was my point. The suhl / Potsdam model 1809/1839 usually do have a block rear sight.

 

[Woods-walker]

At the time they were imported, they were out of date, smoothbore, large-caliber, used weapons, and so not coveted by any soldiers. They were sure not given to the elite Philadelphia militia troops, and I've always understood these went to the "Home Guard" which would not be expecting to be mustered into the federal service. The Home Guard wasn't the same as Air Raid Wardens, but they weren't front line troops, either!

At the time they were imported, they were out of date, smoothbore, large-caliber, used weapons, and so not coveted by any soldiers. They were sure not given to the elite Philadelphia militia troops, and I've always understood these went to the "Home Guard" which would not be expecting to be mustered into the federal service. The Home Guard wasn't the same as Air Raid Wardens, but they weren't front line troops, either!

At the time they were imported, they were out of date, smoothbore, large-caliber, used weapons, and so not coveted by any soldiers. They were sure not given to the elite Philadelphia militia troops, and I've always understood these went to the "Home Guard" which would not be expecting to be mustered into the federal service. The Home Guard wasn't the same as Air Raid Wardens, but they weren't front line troops, either!

Thanks again. That would narrow my search considerably, but at the same time likely not traceable

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Thanks again. That would narrow my search considerably, but at the same time likely not traceable

I would think it likely that the Home Guard was called out for emergency service when southern armies invaded Pennsylvania - I think there were some very short term units organized at that time, serving only for 30 days or less, and if Philadelphia's Mayor didn't want to keep them home to guard City Hall, the Home Guard might well have been sent toward Gettysburg!
There's some research to be done, eh?

 

[DixieRifles]

Let me look again

That was a reply to Rusk County. See his next post.

 

[Woods-walker]

I would think it likely that the Home Guard was called out for emergency service when southern armies invaded Pennsylvania - I think there were some very short term units organized at that time, serving only for 30 days or less, and if Philadelphia's Mayor didn't want to keep them home to guard City Hall, the Home Guard might well have been sent toward Gettysburg!
There's some research to me done, eh?

Yea. Lots of possibilities and I will only likely end up with speculation

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

Thomas - great point. I am by no means a weapon expert. I was wondering about the lack of rear sights too. We'll have to leave it to the experts to answer. I would presume it might have something to do with the limited range of these old rifles. I know the Wentworth

These were manufactured with block style rear sights in the same manner as most other Prussian style arms. The rear sights were dovetailed onto the breech plug tang, and it isn't particularly uncommon to find examples (usually Prussian M1809 Muskets) that have had the rear sights removed. Sometimes the mortise is filled, which is the case with the examples shown in this thread.

That was my point. The suhl / Potsdam model 1809/1839 usually do have a block rear sight.

Ditto. The Prussians even added rear sights to Brown Bess Muskets and French ANIX Muskets that were acquired during the Napoleonic Wars. It wasn't until they began rifling their smoothbore muskets that the block type sights were removed and replaced with barrel mounted long range sights.

 

[Woods-walker]

That was a reply to Rusk County. See his next post.

Yep. I saw it later. Thanks

 

[Woods-walker]

These were manufactured with block style rear sights in the same manner as most other Prussian style arms. The rear sights were dovetailed onto the breech plug tang, and it isn't particularly uncommon to find examples (usually Prussian M1809 Muskets) that have had the rear sights removed. Sometimes the mortise is filled, which is the case with the examples shown in this thread.



Ditto. The Prussians even added rear sights to Brown Bess Muskets and French ANIX Muskets that were acquired during the Napoleonic Wars. It wasn't until they began rifling their smoothbore muskets that the block type sights were removed and replaced with barrel mounted long range sights.

Sure am glad you replied to my original post Garyrock .
I looked at the rifle this morning and found the serial number just where it should be on the stock near the butt plate

 

[James N.]

I can't help notice that none of the weapons woods-walker and Jeff shown got a rear sight...

These were smoothbore muskets, and traditionally, these do not have rear sights, and so these were not made with rear sights. It is true that the Prussian muskets on which these were based did have block shaped rear signts on the barrel tang...

None of our American muskets were manufactured with rear sights either, as on this M.1816/22 conversion from flint to percussion. As noted, only some (but not all) of those so-converted and rifled were mounted with rear sights, including models 1816, 1816/22, 1840 and 1842.