Real or not?

[JH1961]

The authenticity of this knife has been questioned because of the 'fuller'. The naysayer claims there is 'no evidence of any D-guard Bowie with a fuller'. According to information left by my dad it came out if Oklahoma. Re: the fuller and proximity to former Mexican territory: could it have been made from a salvaged Mexican sword?

 

[Lanyard Puller]

It's as Rebel as they come @JH961... made and used in the "war".
Here's some I've come across for my collection:

I rest my case .... Congratulations on your first Confederate Bowie !!!

 

[Bonedaddy]

WOW!! Lucky man!! Thanks for showing.

 

[JH1961]

Another pic:

 

[bayonet]

Nice find, looks like the knife here in Bradley Schmehl's painting that the Reb has. Of course how dare he try to put his dirty mitts on the beautiful, holy, sacred Flag of the Irish. He's about to get what he deserves there run thru with a bayonet!

 

[R. Porter]

Looking through the book, "Confederate Bowie Knives," by Melton, Phillips, and Sexton, toward the end of the book in the "unknown maker," section, are lots of D-guard knives that look like the one presented here. The one sure difference is that the knives in the book do not contain a fuller along the spine.

Is that a problem?

If the knife maker were salvaging an old saber blade then the knife would be genuine, and could be so rare as to not have any examples of it left. The knuckle bow and guard remind me of a steel made small sword from the 18th century. The blade with that fuller reminds me of a U. S. cavalry saber. The most likely saber would be the Rose or the Starr model 1808 or 1810. It seems that so little is known about possible contracts for that model that it might be 1808 or 1810.

 

[JH1961]

Thank you, Sir, for your informative discussion.

 

[bayonet]

Looking through the book, "Confederate Bowie Knives," by Melton, Phillips, and Sexton, toward the end of the book in the "unknown maker," section, are lots of D-guard knives that look like the one presented here. The one sure difference is that the knives in the book do not contain a fuller along the spine.

Is that a problem?

If the knife maker were salvaging an old saber blade then the knife would be genuine, and could be so rare as to not have any examples of it left. The knuckle bow and guard remind me of a steel made small sword from the 18th century. The blade with that fuller reminds me of a U. S. cavalry saber. The most likely saber would be the Rose or the Starr model 1808 or 1810. It seems that so little is known about possible contracts for that model that it might be 1808 or 1810.

Yeah it was common to make knifes out of broken sword blades. Many Scottish Dirks of the 17 & 18 century were made out of broken sword blades.

 

[JH1961]

So, the 'ifs' aren't necessisarily disqualifiers.

 

[Conquerordie]

How wide is the blade? How thick is the back edge or spine? How wide is the fuller? How far is the fuller from the spine? You could take these measurements and see if swords of the time were anywhere near these dimensions. Is it steel or iron? What kind of wood is the grip? All these answers will tell you if you have a real or fake. I'm not gonna guess about yours, these are the questions I'd be asking if I was buying it.

 

[JH1961]

Thank you. I'll do that this weekend.

 

[R. Porter]

Yeah it was common to make knifes out of broken sword blades. Many Scottish Dirks of the 17 & 18 century were made out of broken sword blades.

Somewhere I came across what looked like a short-sword that was being sold as some sort of ethnic blade, I forget which cultural group it was listed as comeing from. It was probably listed as Native American because of the presence of tacks. It looked familiar but I couldn't place it. Then, a few days later when I was looking at some Rev War blades I came across some Scottish dirks and that was it! Except the one I came saw earlier
had lost its disk pommel, and its blade did not have a double sided edge. The blade appeared to have been made from a three-fullered cavalry sword blade of the type the colonists imported from Spain during the Revolution. But the fullers were not uniform so it looked more like an American made three-fullered cavalry sword blade with a clipped point. And the whole weapon was probably two feet long. My first thought was a theater made Revolutionary War Bowie knife on steroids (yes, I know you can't technically have a Bowie knife from before when Bowie was born, but it's just to give a frame of reference.) The last thing I noticed was that the blade was stamped with a VR and crown for Queen Victioria.

I just looked all around for it and even went upstairs. I suspect that it is in one of the boxes under the microwave and some other stuff, so no picture of it tonight. I am very curious as to the history of that weapon.

 

[JH1961]

All measurements were taken using a Stanley tape measure and are approximate.
* blade material: possibly iron (?)
* blade length: 9.75"
* blade width: 1.5"
* blade thickness: 3/16"
* handle length: 3 7/8"
* blade is flat ground and has a convex edge
* handle material: strait-grained wood w/orangish tint
* fittings appear to be iron
* fuller appears to be forged into blade and varies from 3/16" to 1/4" in width

 

[R. Porter]

In 1808 the Federal Government switched from a flat-topped hussar type hilt to a bird's-head pommel type hilt. In 1801 the State of Virginia issued a contract to John Miles of Philadelphia, PA, for 1,000 cavalry swords. These swords had narrow fuller that ran along the spine of the blade on each side. In addition, it had a slight ricasso at the hilt.

Miles Hilt

The previous example has been way over-cleaned. On one side of the blade you can see where it was stamped with the uni it was assigned to.

In 1808 or 1810 the Federal Government contracted with Nathan Starr to furnish swords. This is because swords have been found with"US".

The previous example shows a Starr sword that was stamped "N STARR" on one side in a small channel and "V" for "viewed" on the other. The next three images are from another Starr sword with the same "N Starr" stamp on one side and "US" over what appears to be a "V". The two grips are a little different as well as the two blades.

So there are three examples of swords with similar fillers but only the Starr swords have a lower ferrule. While an old sword blade may not be the origin of your knife, it seems to have acquired traits similar to some Starr swords from around 1808 to 1810. There were a couple of sword makers, whose names escape me and one or both of whom worked for N. Starr in his sword making operation. One of my books has the picture of the only known example of a Confederate sword that they meade. Perhaps they spent more of their time on knives.

 

[JH1961]

Thank you, kind Sir!

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

In 1808 the Federal Government switched from a flat-topped hussar type hilt to a bird's-head pommel type hilt. In 1801 the State of Virginia issued a contract to John Miles of Philadelphia, PA, for 1,000 cavalry swords. These swords had narrow fuller that ran along the spine of the blade on each side. In addition, it had a slight ricasso at the hilt.View attachment 488615Miles HiltView attachment 488616View attachment 488617 The previous example has been way over-cleaned. On one side of the blade you can see where it was stamped with the uni it was assigned to.

In 1808 or 1810 the Federal Government contracted with Nathan Starr to furnish swords. This is because swords have been found with"US". View attachment 488619View attachment 488620View attachment 488621The previous example shows a Starr sword that was stamped "N STARR" on one side in a small channel and "V" for "viewed" on the other. The next three images are from another Starr sword with the same "N Starr" stamp on one side and "US" over what appears to be a "V". The two grips are a little different as well as the two blades.

View attachment 488622View attachment 488624

View attachment 488623

So there are three examples of swords with similar fillers but only the Starr swords have a lower ferrule. While an old sword blade may not be the origin of your knife, it seems to have acquired traits similar to some Starr swords from around 1808 to 1810. There were a couple of sword makers, whose names escape me and one or both of whom worked for N. Starr in his sword making operation. One of my books has the picture of the only known example of a Confederate sword that they meade. Perhaps they spent more of their time on knives.

Here is my example of the Starr M1808 (alternatively called M1810) for comparison.

 

[Conquerordie]

I don't think it could be made from a sword blade like that. The way the fuller ends at the tip of the knife blade would mean the blade was made from the tip of the sword. That's usually the thinnest part of the blade. Does the Bowie in question have a thin profiled tip? Also, the spine is very straight, while sword blades that are pictured seem to be curved the entire length. Would they have heated, straightened, and retempered a broken sword to make it a knife? Dirks made from Scottish swords was an easy project because the the sword blades were straight profiled, not curved.

 

[R. Porter]

I don't think it could be made from a sword blade like that. The way the fuller ends at the tip of the knife blade would mean the blade was made from the tip of the sword. That's usually the thinnest part of the blade. Does the Bowie in question have a thin profiled tip? Also, the spine is very straight, while sword blades that are pictured seem to be curved the entire length. Would they have heated, straightened, and retempered a broken sword to make it a knife? Dirks made from Scottish swords was an easy project because the the sword blades were straight profiled, not curved.

I had similar thoughts, which is why I indicated that a sword blade might not be the origin of the knife. Then I mentioned a couple of sword makers, at least one of whom, I believe, worked for Starr before moving south. The unspoken question being that since the construction techniques of the sword and knife seem similar, could they have been made by the same former Starr enployee?

Of course I couldn't remember their names until after I had cut off my computer and was brushing my teeth.The names were Arnold and Cooley and to my knowledge there is only one sword attributed to them known. It is in a museum in a town in North Carolina .

Earl Cooley (1824-1872) | WikiTree FREE Family Tree

Is this your ancestor? Compare DNA and explore genealogy for Earl Cooley born 1824 Connecticut, USA died 1872 Kansas, USA including ancestors + children + DNA connections + more in the free family tree community.

www.wikitree.com

COOLEY, Earl b. 21 Aug 1824 Connecticut d. 3 Sep 1872 Kansas: Hope N. Tillman's Genealogy Pages

 

[JH1961]

The wealth of knowledge contained within the collective minds of this site's members is astounding.

 

[bayonet]

I don't think it could be made from a sword blade like that. The way the fuller ends at the tip of the knife blade would mean the blade was made from the tip of the sword. That's usually the thinnest part of the blade. Does the Bowie in question have a thin profiled tip? Also, the spine is very straight, while sword blades that are pictured seem to be curved the entire length. Would they have heated, straightened, and retempered a broken sword to make it a knife? Dirks made from Scottish swords was an easy project because the the sword blades were straight profiled, not curved.

Maybe or maybe not. Notice the first 25% of the sword blade starting at the handle is straight. Plus in his pics where the fuller ends to the tip the metal is of a different shade. Possible the work of a Blacksmith or whoever crafted the knife.