What is this? Real or Fake?

[PowerSpoon]

Hello everyone, I am new to civil war collecting, I recently acquired 2 sabers. However, I don't really know what model they are, or even if they are real. I was looking for any information anyone has by looking at the uploaded images to help me determine if they are real. Thank you for any and all input and I look forward to reading all the information, Thank you for your time.

 

[UCVRelics]

The swords are real, the markings on the spine of the blade are fake. Neither maker marked swords like that.

 

[bobinwmass]

Unless there is US etching on the 2nd sword's blade, since it appears to have a horn grip it may be a French officer's sword that someone was trying to pass off as Confederate. The first style sword is also one that was used extensively in Europe, it also may have never seen the ACW unless there are some markings to prove otherwise.

 

[bayonet]

If your new to ACW collecting I would say take them back to where you got them, get your money back, and start over again. Pay attention to posts on this site or buy some books on the subject, then go buy!

 

[JackADriscoll]

How much did you pay

 

[scooter748driver]

Welcome from the Fort Sumter and the Fredericksburg forums. It's a shame those sabers were modified as they were. I agree, get your money back.

 

[Salterr]

If your new to ACW collecting I would say take them back to where you got them, get your money back, and start over again. Pay attention to posts on this site or buy some books on the subject, then go buy!

Sage advice right here

 

[Salterr]

Engravings are much more refined and delicate looking. Depending on the sword you can also have etching, frosting or bluing on high grade swords. Here is an example https://oldsouthantiques.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item.asp?687

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy. Members opinions here tell the story.

 

[Reconstructed Rebel]

Welcome! Don't be discouraged. Try, try again….Success awaits those who don't give up easy.

 

[R. Porter]

As said above, the engraving on both spines is fake. The first sword appears to be a model 1840 cavalry sword made in Germany. The grip appears to be wrapped with cord, covered by leather and then wrapped by wire as would a German import be. The wire used is not as tightly twisted as on many imported swords. The grip contour is of the model 1840 style. There are no inspection stamps on the hilt or blade which would be consistent with a foreign import. The bottom of the brass guard has a lip running around the edge. The screw holding the throat on the sides of the scabbard rather than the edges is also a German trait. This sword, except for the false markings on the spine, looks like a typical imported model 1840 cavalry sword that could have been used by either side.

The officer's sword looks French. The horn grip makes it look French and the stamps on the blade and scabbard are French. Unfortunately the "C" within the raised circle is not earlier than about 1890. That suggests that the officer's sword is more likely associated with the First World War.

The false engravings on the spines of the blades greatly devalues the swords.

 

[JackADriscoll]

There are some genres of collectibles where people collect well done fakes and they have a value in their own right. Do you think acw items could ever be like that?

 

[Salterr]

@Ian.a8404 I think maybe if the price of civil war items becomes unaffordable overall then a market might develop for purposely collecting fakes. Sadly I watch utterly bogus insignia sell on ebay for big money. A lot of time more than what a real piece is worth. It's always made me wonder how so many people could devote such large amounts of money in buying fake things. Do they know it's fake and still want it or do they have no idea and just throw money around? The sellers make a boatload of money selling fake stuff and as long as they can sell it there will always be a reason to make fake stuff. Sadly even reputable dealers have fake insignia on some of their hats and other pieces and still people are buying them. To me it wouldn't make sense to start collecting fakes unless you are using them as placeholders for an authentic rare piece.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Among knowledge folks, if it claims to be Confederate, it is automatically labeled a fake until proved otherwise. An example of a potential Confederate saber would be a European blade with a country made handle & guard. Barrels of sword & saber blades were imported from France & Germany. Local artisans crafted & mounted distinctive handles & guards. A knowledgeable collector can spot one from across a room. Tiffany & Co. customized European swords of the highest quality. Everything else falls some where in between.

You need to decide why you are making a purchase. For example, I have a very well made Chinese replica of a Nashville Plow Works artillery sword that is a prop for a presentation. It does exactly what I need it for.

So, as your new friends have advised, get your money back or hang your sabers on the wall as decorator items. You have a lot of homework to do before your next investment .

 

[bayonet]

What I find as sad over the years in a few cases is Folks that join this website and ask for advise on an item they just brought. So Folks respond back that it's fake, been altered, return it and go get your money back, what did you spend on it, not original to the time period, etc. the list goes on. Then you never here from them again, no doubt in a state of shock that they got ripped off and for a large amount of money (maybe the case here). So sad I remember a few years back some guy joined and asked about a Prussian (hessian) Rev War period 1742 pattern dragoon pistol. Having one in my collection and it being in the top 3 most expensive item in my collection I responded back to the poor soul (as did others). It was a repro I was 99% sure on and even named the dealer that made them. Never heard a peep back from the guy sadly. Won't hold my breath that we hear back from this poor Chap above either.

 

[Rhea Cole]

What I find as sad over the years in a few cases is Folks that join this website and ask for advise on an item they just brought. So Folks respond back that it's fake, been altered, return it and go get your money back, what did you spend on it, not original to the time period, etc. the list goes on. Then you never here from them again, no doubt in a state of shock that they got ripped off and for a large amount of money (maybe the case here). So sad I remember a few years back some guy joined and asked about a Prussian (hessian) Rev War period 1742 pattern dragoon pistol. Having one in my collection and it being in the top 3 most expensive item in my collection I responded back to the poor soul (as did others). It was a repro I was 99% sure on and even named the dealer that made them. Never heard a peep back from the guy sadly. Won't hold my breath that we hear back from this poor Chap above either.

Years ago I volunteered at a Civil War relic valuation fund raiser. My job was checking for live ammunition & wire tying the fire arms. A geezer bragged to everyone within range about his greatgrandad's Colt pistol he used to shoot Yankee's with.

When the expert said that he hoped the revered ancestor had not actually shot Yankee's with it. The serial number was from the last run of cap & ball 1851 Navy Colt in 1873.

The geezer went ballistic. "Call me a liar !?" The security guard/policeman had her pepper spray ready to go when when a couple of hearty volunteers hauled the ranting relic owner off.

Facts are not necessarily welcome where family legends & treasures are concerned.

 

[JackADriscoll]

I suspect he paid a lot. If someone paid 50 dollars we usually hear back.

The colt story is funny and relevant. Our relatives lie too

 

[Salterr]

I suspect he paid a lot. If someone paid 50 dollars we usually hear back.

The colt story is funny and relevant. Our relatives lie too

That reminds me of a post I made a while back. It was actually because of my grandfather fibbing about a buckle he gave to me that started me on my own collection path and made researching the good from the bad the first priority before the purchase. The person who posted still has himself some nice looking display pieces though, sometimes getting fooled is the best way to learn. It's all in the details!

 

[R. Porter]

I never inherited any militaria. I had to save up money to buy it myself. I didn't have much money so I didn't make any really expensive mistakes starting out. I made small mistakes and learned to do some research. Later, as I had more money to spend, I was able to make more expensive mistakes. I was usually able to learn from my mistakes. The initial poster of this thread has two real swords. Except for the bogus inscriptions, each sword is a bundle of traits that can be used to learn whether or not another sword is real, fake, a Frankensword made of parts of other real swords, a fantasy sword that never existed and so forth. In theory the poster could check the Internet for average selling prices for the swords he has and compare these with what he paid. If it is way off and the seller charged too much he can ask for his money back. If the cost is about the same, he probably has a good argument for a partial refund. If it is much less, he can hang on to the swords, because they are real and qualify as damaged. He may also be able to determine if the person he got them from was being honest or unethical; good to know for future purchases. Finally, he will be the best judge of whether or not he thought he knew something the seller didn't and was getting a dream bargain (a deal too good to be true.) Learning the hard way that a deal too good to be true usually is.

After all this I still make mistakes. I haven't learned everything yet and some things I've learned I've forgotten and have to learn again. So, I will be just like the original poster again and again before I'm done; unless I die in my sleep tonight. (Even if I do research first. It's my version of gambling.)

 

[Salterr]

Well said @R. Porter. My collecting style has changed as I'm sure it has for all of us with time and knowledge. My first piece was also my first fake piece. My grandfather gave me a fake US buckle and told me it was real so he could gauge how serious I was about starting a civil war collection. It's the centerpiece of all my items for that very reason. I did however go buy my first real buckle immediately after learning about the gifted one.When I was new to it I wanted everything I could get my hands on and jumped all over the place with little focus. A canteen, a buckle, a button, image or identified piece I was frantic that if I didn't buy it I'd never see it again. The rate at which I buy pieces is drastically slower now all these years later. I realize that all the stuff reappears constantly if you look hard enough or long enough. So there's no rush to buy things without the research. If you miss it the first time it'll be back and the person better educated. I was able to find my passion in insignia and boards and so far the record stands at waiting 6 years for a set of boards to reappear and 3 for an officers hardee hat badge to show up again.