Real or Fake Saber?

[Csukraw]

Curious if this is a fake or is indeed a real civil war saber. My father purchased it off eBay years ago so who knows. Looks different than what I see online so I'm not confident it is real.

 

[captaindrew]

Welcome to the forum. Looks like a legit saber to me but I'm not an expert on blades. I'm sure one will be along before long to help you out.

 

[redbob]

Welcome to the group from middle Alabama and our blade folks should be along shortly with your information.

 

[Tanglewood]

It is a real cavalry saber, European, and could have been over here during the Civil War, but there is no way to determine if it was or not. The cord wrap under the leather grip is generally a European method, over here grooves were made in the wood. I think that it is a French model 1822, with the unstopped fuller at the hilt and a double fuller (thin groove) out the blade a bit.

 

[Csukraw]

It is a real cavalry saber, European, and could have been over here during the Civil War, but there is no way to determine if it was or not. The cord wrap under the leather grip is generally a European method, over here grooves were made in the wood. I think that it is a French model 1822, with the unstopped fuller at the hilt and a double fuller (thin groove) out the blade a bit.

So what war would this have been for then?

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy. Possibly Crimean ??

 

[Tanglewood]

So what war would this have been for then?

I'm not at all well versed on all of the many French conflicts, but sure that John42768 is correct, the Crimean War timeframe fits.

For purposes of American military history, the U.S. model 1840 saber is adapted from the French 1822, almost a straight up copy. So the progression of our model 1840 to the sturdy but more easily wielded models 1860 and 1906 is arguably also evolved from the French 1822. I guess logically you could include our 1872 by its date and appearance, but it is flimsy cousin in the lineage of our cavalry sabers.

 

[bayonet]

With the numbered digits on the handle/hilt you see that most often on European blades used in European wars. Many brought back by Veterans of WW1 & WW2 here as souvenirs. Europeans hungry for Yankee dollars would sell them anything. But of course there is that slim possibility it was here during the ACW. That little o in front of the 409 is something I've never seen in ACW swords.

 

[Glen_C]

Is there any marking on the spine of the blade? The Germans/Prussians recycled a lot of French swords during the the Franco/Prussian war. The US m1840 was a product of the 1839 trials and S&K (Prussia) won the contract, as less costly than the French bid (despite adopting the French stylings).

Cheers
GC

 

[TLHS]

I'm not at all well versed on all of the many French conflicts, but sure that John42768 is correct, the Crimean War timeframe fits.

For purposes of American military history, the U.S. model 1840 saber is adapted from the French 1822, almost a straight up copy. So the progression of our model 1840 to the sturdy but more easily wielded models 1860 and 1906 is arguably also evolved from the French 1822. I guess logically you could include our 1872 by its date and appearance, but it is flimsy cousin in the lineage of our cavalry sabers.

I think you are correct in all aspects. One unusual feature is the tang of the blade through the pommel has not been polished down which could mean the poor blade could have been married to the perfect condition hilt?

 

[Tanglewood]

I think you are correct in all aspects. One unusual feature is the tang of the blade through the pommel has not been polished down which could mean the poor blade could have been married to the perfect condition hilt?

You have a good eye. I've occasionally seen that rounded knob on the tang on other French 1822s, and wondered about it myself. Made that way, or reworked? I don't know.

 

[R. Porter]

You have a good eye. I've occasionally seen that rounded knob on the tang on other French 1822s, and wondered about it myself. Made that way, or reworked? I don't know.

I always thought it was a rivit that made remounting the hilt easier. I've seen it a few times before but not enough to think it was a standard assembly practice. Then there is the matter of when these rivits came along. I see it as a cylindrical shaft with a domed head being inserted through a hole in the pommel and over the end of the tang after the rivit was heated. Then a few seating blows with a hammer and some sort of punch-like tool. After it cools the rivit should fit tightly. Of course, this I made up in my head to explain a nice shiny dome on the pommel rather than a smashed ugly splat of iron that used to be the end of the tang.

 

[Tanglewood]

I always thought it was a rivit that made remounting the hilt easier. I've seen it a few times before but not enough to think it was a standard assembly practice. Then there is the matter of when these rivits came along. I see it as a cylindrical shaft with a domed head being inserted through a hole in the pommel and over the end of the tang after the rivit was heated. Then a few seating blows with a hammer and some sort of punch-like tool. After it cools the rivit should fit tightly. Of course, this I made up in my head to explain a nice shiny dome on the pommel rather than a smashed ugly splat of iron that used to be the end of the tang.

I have wondered whether the knob might be the result of using some sort of a punch with a countersunk face. So instead of just a hammering the tang then filing it smooth with the pommel cap, they could save having to file it down. It's not a big question, but I'm just always interested in how things were done by hand back then.