Ramrod usage at force on force events

[1st Section]

There are plenty of reenactor groups who've used ramrods for decades without accident. Everyone's threshold of risk is different. It's a funny thing with reenactors that we are all supremely confident that our way is 'safe' but the way anyone else does it is 'dangerous'. At the end of the day, it's a hobby where we point real guns and cannons at each other, ride real horses around at a gallop, and wave real swords over our heads. We'd all be objectively safer simply staying at home with our model trains.

The video above is a good example of how we each make individual threat assessments. Look at the distance that ramrod flew. Ramrod or not, would any of you be comfortable discharging a blank cartridge that close at another human being? Is the bigger risk here the ramrod or the proximity? Is the primary threat the possibility of an inattentive reenactor or the certainty an event organizer who allows engagements to take place at close intervals?

The segment of the hobby that has no problem with ramrods also doesn't stage free-for-all, shoot'em ups where everyone is welcome to participate. Participation in the events my group puts together is strictly by invitation only. Train and vett your people. Set your standards extremely high and demand your participants adhere to them. Plan and manage your scenarios carefully. Demand the same from any event you agree to attend, and don't be afraid to stay home if they can't deliver.

If you're not willing to do that, yea, you probably shouldn't use ramrods.

 

[thomas aagaard]

Looking to Europe... bayonets and ramrods are in common use for Napoleonic events.
And for the 1866 war events the same is the case with both sides having fixed bayonets and the Austrians using their ramrods.
(and btw have no issue with simulated close combat... that is a bit too much for me personally)

 

[bayonet]

That's kind of my point. The distance that rammer was fired, while commonly encountered at mainstream events, is much closer than realistically took place during the civil war.

So if that's the case, if we are cramming reenactors into an area where they are required to engage at 30 yards, just for the sake of "that's all the space we have if we want spectators," we need to ask ourselves as living historians, what are we actually teaching here, or am I just doing this because it's fun and I wanna burn powder?

Well that guy was dressed up and reenacting the Rev War & not the ACW. During the Rev War opposing lines were closer. Usually 1 volley then charge bayonets.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Today it was announced that a large event for the 2025 reenacting season (Nine Hours in Hell) will not be allowing ramming. This came after saying it was going to be allowed at the event prior.

So what is your take on this? I personally think ramming should be allowed. I think the dangers are exaggerated to an extensive degree, with most "evidence" against it being "well back at the 135th Gettysburg someone shot a ramrod, I was lucky to have lived". If you are properly following load in 9 times, you never take your hand off the rammer. I have been to plenty of force on force events that use ramrods and not a single rammer went flying.

There is also plenty of video evidence of someone shooting their ramrod out of their musket using blanks, the only time it went a considerable distance was when he was "duck hunting". Accounts from the war about ramrods being shot are due to the projectile in the barrel. Shooting blanks isn't the same.

There's plenty who do, plenty who don't, and believe it or not I've known Texas Rev. reenactors, (who use them), be diehards it's the way to go, and when doing CW be diehards to not pull rammers due to safety.

I wouldn't sweat it, if that's a deal breaker for an event, just don't go. There will be more.

We and our circles ain't the only ones there, for better and often times worst, there are many others and the event should be fun for everyone. Except the super farbs that are deadly in they're conduct, they can go to the hot place!

Go to events and enjoy yourself, if an event looks like it won't be, pass on it. I know I pass on a bunch these days for that reason. Call it your vote, and not worry about others votes. An event falls on its face let it. If it's gonna succeed, let it.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

There are plenty of reenactor groups who've used ramrods for decades without accident. Everyone's threshold of risk is different. It's a funny thing with reenactors that we are all supremely confident that our way is 'safe' but the way anyone else does it is 'dangerous'. At the end of the day, it's a hobby where we point real guns and cannons at each other, ride real horses around at a gallop, and wave real swords over our heads. We'd all be objectively safer simply staying at home with our model trains.

The video above is a good example of how we each make individual threat assessments. Look at the distance that ramrod flew. Ramrod or not, would any of you be comfortable discharging a blank cartridge that close at another human being? Is the bigger risk here the ramrod or the proximity? Is the primary threat the possibility of an inattentive reenactor or the certainty an event organizer who allows engagements to take place at close intervals?

The segment of the hobby that has no problem with ramrods also doesn't stage free-for-all, shoot'em ups where everyone is welcome to participate. Participation in the events my group puts together is strictly by invitation only. Train and vett your people. Set your standards extremely high and demand your participants adhere to them. Plan and manage your scenarios carefully. Demand the same from any event you agree to attend, and don't be afraid to stay home if they can't deliver.

If you're not willing to do that, yea, you probably shouldn't use ramrods.

I've been thrown off a field and that day walked away from a unit because the Captain ordered me to fire my musket in a manner, (the muzzle in two people's ears) and I refused to fire when he demanded I fire for the perfect volley.

Your post and this thread has brought back that memory.

I now refuse to reenact at events hosted by that association! At least under they're command.

 

[nc native]

This might be slightly off topic but I saw an episode of Daniel Boone the other day where he was loading his gun and he raised it with the ramrod still sticking out of the barrel threatening to shoot a British officer saying to the effect that while a ramrod wasn't as effective
as a bullet, he wouldn't want to be hit by one. Now I wonder what would have happened if he had fired his flintlock in real life.

 

[Story]

Now I wonder what would have happened if he had fired his flintlock in real life.

Meet William Tell

William Tell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

There are plenty of reenactor groups who've used ramrods for decades without accident. Everyone's threshold of risk is different. It's a funny thing with reenactors that we are all supremely confident that our way is 'safe' but the way anyone else does it is 'dangerous'. At the end of the day, it's a hobby where we point real guns and cannons at each other, ride real horses around at a gallop, and wave real swords over our heads. We'd all be objectively safer simply staying at home with our model trains.

The video above is a good example of how we each make individual threat assessments. Look at the distance that ramrod flew. Ramrod or not, would any of you be comfortable discharging a blank cartridge that close at another human being? Is the bigger risk here the ramrod or the proximity? Is the primary threat the possibility of an inattentive reenactor or the certainty an event organizer who allows engagements to take place at close intervals?

The segment of the hobby that has no problem with ramrods also doesn't stage free-for-all, shoot'em ups where everyone is welcome to participate. Participation in the events my group puts together is strictly by invitation only. Train and vett your people. Set your standards extremely high and demand your participants adhere to them. Plan and manage your scenarios carefully. Demand the same from any event you agree to attend, and don't be afraid to stay home if they can't deliver.

If you're not willing to do that, yea, you probably shouldn't use ramrods.

You are right, @1st Section. Distance is key. IF the opposing lines are at all times far enough apart and the participants are well trained and well drilled, the display of reality offered by firing blanks and using ramrods will be good.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Meet William Tell

William Tell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Take a dump. Take a dump. Take a dump dump dump, Take a dump. Take a dump. Take a dump dump dump...."

 

[Cavalier]

Not being a reenactor myself I really am not qualified to comment on this. However, from the perspective of an outsider looking in, I think I'd feel safer participating in reenactment where bayonets and ramrods were used then driving south on 95 in snowstorm.

John

 

[bayonet]

Not being a reenactor myself I really am not qualified to comment on this. However, from the perspective of an outsider looking in, I think I'd feel safer participating in reenactment where bayonets and ramrods were used then driving south on 95 in snowstorm.

John

what you never hit black ice, rammed a tree, and ate an airbag? You don't know what your missing!

 

[BrianB]

I recall an incident involving a drummer boy from New Jersey(?) in a reenactment some years ago, who was injured by a tampion (no, folks that is "tampion" and not "tampon") fired by an unidentified reenactor.

 

[7thWisconsin]

I´ve been to small events where ramming has been allowed. Literally all participants knew each other and were comfortable with the practice. I did a mid-sized non-spectator event a few years ago where ramming was allowed AND we charged with fixed bayonets. Over a plowed field. Yet I felt safe doing it. It was an excellent experience. (I did get frostbite at that event, but I don´t think it was a musket related issue.) I think it was significant that every event I´ve done that allows these practices was a non-spectator event. We can accept a certain amount of risk. A spectator simply does not. Another key was distance. Lines and individuals didn´t close to the normal firing distance seen in mainstream reenacting

 

[Cavalier]

@bayonet Wow, I hope you weren't banged up too bad !

John

 

[bayonet]

@bayonet Wow, I hope you weren't banged up too bad !

John

Nah chest hurt alittle, thumb was sore (should not hold steering wheel with thumb inside it), cellphone was bent in two from being in my front pocket hitting the steering wheel (happily it was a company phone so I didn't pay for it), and a 22 year old airbag tastes terrible but worked!

 

[Cavalier]

@bayonet At least you're OK. My sympathies for the critically wounded cell phone however. Its an old guy thing I know, but I'm still looking forward to the return of rotary phones. Glad you didn't have to pay for the d--- thing though.

John

 

[bayonet]

@bayonet At least you're OK. My sympathies for the critically wounded cell phone however. Its an old guy thing I know, but I'm still looking forward to the return of rotary phones. Glad you didn't have to pay for the d--- thing though.

John

second time black ice it was a 4 car pile up and I was #3. Again old nasty tasting air bag and not a scratch on me. Kiss another $500-1500 old Ford Escort (the best) commute car good buy. #4s **** cheap insurance company wouldn't even cover my towing or train ride home

 

[Cavalier]

@bayonet In my experience the only thing that helps on the ice is chains. Never had an air bag deploy on me yet but I still have a few years of driving before I'm too old for that so I better knock on wood.

Sympathize about your insurance company issue. I think almost everyone has had an issue with one of them at some time in their life.

John

 

[SethJ]

I have personally made the mistake of firing my ramrod out of my 1861 Springfield rifle.

It wasn't pleasant. And nobody, reenactor or no, was on the other side.

I recall doing a speed-shoot, seeing how many rounds I could get off in a minute. I was making good time when I suppose I missed a slight step. I brought the rifle to firing position, and pulled the trigger.
There was an intense BANG, unlike any round I've fired before. I staggard back, tripped on a brick and fell on my rump. It took me a second to process what had happened.
When I recovered, I inspected my rifle, making sure no unusual lumps formed in the barrel (none did). During this inspection, I discovered my ramrod was missing. I searched the property for a solid 3 hours... No sign of it anywhere.
Just being the one firing the rifle was a bit of a frightening experience. In fact sense purchasing my new ramrod (which, I need to replace again for a fault that's not mine ) I have been very careful with taking calculated steps in the firing process.

Now, imagine being a reenactor, having fun on a field. You've just advanced, and you see the line in front of you lowering their rifles. You decide this time, you'll take the hit... And just as you calculate the best way to fall, the rifles go off... In the puff of smoke, you see something... And now you feel something. Now you have a large piece of metal extruding from your body... Im sure many here could imagine the scene that would follow.

Imagine being the fun-loving reenactor who just lowered his rifle to fire. Just as the CO yells "fire", your company mates screams something, but its too late... You land on the person behind you as your rifle barrel turns into a bubble, and you realize what just occurred... Looking at a man screaming in agony on the other side of the field. Only moments ago you were both having fun... Now you will both be having other things.

Lastly... Imagine being a spectator. Seeing the events I colorfully portrayed in the last two paragraphs. People and the children they bring wouldn't want to see that. I wouldn't want to risk them seeing that. Is it worth having them see that? Is it worth being the person firing the rifle having to deal with the guilt of just shooting a man? Would you want to be the man who just received a ramrod to the body?

Even if the ramrod missed a person, and landed with it extruding from the ground... I assure you, that entire event is being halted and likely canceled. I assure you that many reports will have to be filed. I assure you many harsh words and feelings will be spread. I assure you many a commanding officer is going to give a few men a good chewing. I assure you event organizers may ask a folk or two to leave.

So, is using a ramrod worth it, when there is risk of any of the above? Is it really worth somebody getting hurt or worse? Is it really worth somebody seeing something they shouldn't see? Am I perhaps being a bit dramatic... yes, possibly. But its still true. My organization (WCWA) has strict guidelines. There is never to be a ramrod removed during a battle... A ramrod should only be used for cleaning a rifle. And if it is used for a firing demonstration, an Officer or some kind must be present to assure all is being conducted safely.

It would be cool to be apart of the line, hearing the sound of metal rods ramming home a charge.. But all it takes is one new person, or veteran, to miss a step, and cause more problems that bargained for.

Sense the topic was breached, I do believe bayonets, if used with utmost care and common sense are safe to use at an event... Ill be darned if my company is based around the bayonet (Portraying a member of the 20th Maine). Yes yes, common sense could be used with a ramrod... but its a bit harder to stab somebody when you're aware of the large pointy thang at the end of a gun than to miss pulling out and firing a thin metal stick.

Anyways, I'm sure I've left a good deal of grammar issues and run-on sentences... maybe even a forgotten point or two.
Bayonets,
-Seth

 

[thomas aagaard]

I recall doing a speed-shoot, seeing how many rounds I could get off in a minute.

Live rounds or blanks?