Ramrod usage at force on force events

[The Ninth Ohio]

but its a bit harder to stab somebody when you're aware of the large pointy thang at the end of a gun than to miss pulling out and firing a thin metal stick.

Maybe for those down range. But having a fixed bayonet can be pretty dangerous for those standing next to you, especially if you don't know what you're doing.

I also find it interesting you're willing to make that exception because of your impression. I guess we all have our own thresholds of risk.

 

[SethJ]

Live rounds or blanks?

Mine was live rounds... Yes, I understand the difference between the power of a live round and a blank, but I believe the general idea still stands.

 

[SethJ]

Maybe for those down range. But having a fixed bayonet can be pretty dangerous for those standing next to you, especially if you don't know what you're doing.

I also find it interesting you're willing to make that exception because of your impression. I guess we all have our own thresholds of risk.

Tis fair, those around you stand at risk if you decide not to take precautions. But, as I'm willing to admit with either the Bayonet or ramrod discussion, anything can be avoided when steps are taken.

And perhaps it is a bit biased because of the company my unit portrays... But in all honesty I do see a difference. Perhaps some may not see too much of a danger level between the two... But I suppose most of this is subjective... As you said, everybody has their own risk thresholds.

 

[bayonet]

I have personally made the mistake of firing my ramrod out of my 1861 Springfield rifle.

It wasn't pleasant. And nobody, reenactor or no, was on the other side.

I recall doing a speed-shoot, seeing how many rounds I could get off in a minute. I was making good time when I suppose I missed a slight step. I brought the rifle to firing position, and pulled the trigger.
There was an intense BANG, unlike any round I've fired before. I staggard back, tripped on a brick and fell on my rump. It took me a second to process what had happened.
When I recovered, I inspected my rifle, making sure no unusual lumps formed in the barrel (none did). During this inspection, I discovered my ramrod was missing. I searched the property for a solid 3 hours... No sign of it anywhere.
Just being the one firing the rifle was a bit of a frightening experience. In fact sense purchasing my new ramrod (which, I need to replace again for a fault that's not mine ) I have been very careful with taking calculated steps in the firing process.

Now, imagine being a reenactor, having fun on a field. You've just advanced, and you see the line in front of you lowering their rifles. You decide this time, you'll take the hit... And just as you calculate the best way to fall, the rifles go off... In the puff of smoke, you see something... And now you feel something. Now you have a large piece of metal extruding from your body... Im sure many here could imagine the scene that would follow.

Imagine being the fun-loving reenactor who just lowered his rifle to fire. Just as the CO yells "fire", your company mates screams something, but its too late... You land on the person behind you as your rifle barrel turns into a bubble, and you realize what just occurred... Looking at a man screaming in agony on the other side of the field. Only moments ago you were both having fun... Now you will both be having other things.

Lastly... Imagine being a spectator. Seeing the events I colorfully portrayed in the last two paragraphs. People and the children they bring wouldn't want to see that. I wouldn't want to risk them seeing that. Is it worth having them see that? Is it worth being the person firing the rifle having to deal with the guilt of just shooting a man? Would you want to be the man who just received a ramrod to the body?

Even if the ramrod missed a person, and landed with it extruding from the ground... I assure you, that entire event is being halted and likely canceled. I assure you that many reports will have to be filed. I assure you many harsh words and feelings will be spread. I assure you many a commanding officer is going to give a few men a good chewing. I assure you event organizers may ask a folk or two to leave.

So, is using a ramrod worth it, when there is risk of any of the above? Is it really worth somebody getting hurt or worse? Is it really worth somebody seeing something they shouldn't see? Am I perhaps being a bit dramatic... yes, possibly. But its still true. My organization (WCWA) has strict guidelines. There is never to be a ramrod removed during a battle... A ramrod should only be used for cleaning a rifle. And if it is used for a firing demonstration, an Officer or some kind must be present to assure all is being conducted safely.

It would be cool to be apart of the line, hearing the sound of metal rods ramming home a charge.. But all it takes is one new person, or veteran, to miss a step, and cause more problems that bargained for.

Sense the topic was breached, I do believe bayonets, if used with utmost care and common sense are safe to use at an event... Ill be darned if my company is based around the bayonet (Portraying a member of the 20th Maine). Yes yes, common sense could be used with a ramrod... but its a bit harder to stab somebody when you're aware of the large pointy thang at the end of a gun than to miss pulling out and firing a thin metal stick.

Anyways, I'm sure I've left a good deal of grammar issues and run-on sentences... maybe even a forgotten point or two.
Bayonets,
-Seth

Too bad you didn't film it, you could of posted it on Reddit under the r/idiotswithguns

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Mine was live rounds... Yes, I understand the difference between the power of a live round and a blank, but I believe the general idea still stands.

Well there's also the issue of you doing a "speed-shoot," which is…not something I've seen at a campaigner event, ever. Do you care to opine what role trying to fire as fast as you could had in forgetting Step 7 of loading in nine times?

 

[rebed19th]

I don't understand what you mean by a live round or a blank. If there is powder down the barrel it is a live round. Example: Artillery units don't fire cannon balls but there is powder in the gun therefore the gun is live and stay clear.

 

[SethJ]

Well there's also the issue of you doing a "speed-shoot," which is…not something I've seen at a campaigner event, ever. Do you care to opine what role trying to fire as fast as you could had in forgetting Step 7 of loading in nine times?

I was at my grandparents property... In the middle of the mountains. I was by myself just minding my own.

Really, I can only blame one thing.


I'm just outright dumb. Let's be real here, I expect nothing less from myself

 

[SethJ]

View attachment 550130Too bad you didn't film it, you could of posted it on Reddit under the r/idiotswithguns

I think Idiot is the only real way to describe me in that moment

edit: side note, that GIF might be the greatest thing I've seen... what's that from?

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

I was at my grandparents property... In the middle of the mountains. I was by myself just minding my own.

Really, I can only blame one thing.


I'm just outright dumb. Let's be real here, I expect nothing less from myself

Meh, I wouldn't go that far, but I also wouldn't consider it an example of why not to use rammers.

 

[SethJ]

Meh, I wouldn't go that far, but I also wouldn't consider it an example of why not to use rammers.

Fair 'nough.

 

[thomas aagaard]

I don't understand what you mean by a live round or a blank. If there is powder down the barrel it is a live round. Example: Artillery units don't fire cannon balls but there is powder in the gun therefore the gun is live and stay clear.

There is a huge difference between the two.

If you load a gun with a blank there is a danger zone from the muzzle and x distance forward. How fare depend on the weapon.
If you add a bullet or cannon ball that distance obviously change.
From a few meters in the case of a musket to hundreds of meters.

With blank you can do combat demonstrations with two opposing sides. Obviously you can't do that with live ammo. (or "sharp" as we call it in Danish)

With the "AR15s" we use in the Danish army we are talking 5m for blanks. I can't even remember how fare it is for live ammo, when used in open terrain. 1km? 1½?
Blanks can in principle be used everywhere. I once used it inside a (just closed) hospital where we practiced clearing a big building. With a school next door. No issue. Obviously that can't be done with live ammo.
But training that sort of thing with live ammo can only be done at highly specialized training facilities.


And in the case of firing of your ramrod. It makes a massive difference in how well the energy is transferred to the ramrod, if there is just power behind it, powder and paper or powder and a bullet.

 

[RebelWeber]

Today it was announced that a large event for the 2025 reenacting season (Nine Hours in Hell) will not be allowing ramming. This came after saying it was going to be allowed at the event prior.

So what is your take on this? I personally think ramming should be allowed. I think the dangers are exaggerated to an extensive degree, with most "evidence" against it being "well back at the 135th Gettysburg someone shot a ramrod, I was lucky to have lived". If you are properly following load in 9 times, you never take your hand off the rammer. I have been to plenty of force on force events that use ramrods and not a single rammer went flying.

There is also plenty of video evidence of someone shooting their ramrod out of their musket using blanks, the only time it went a considerable distance was when he was "duck hunting". Accounts from the war about ramrods being shot are due to the projectile in the barrel. Shooting blanks isn't the same.

I can only recall a handful of events where we have used rammers, and I must say the impression definitely benefited from that. I happen to be the LSO ( Line Safety Officer) for my unit and I drill my soldiers intensely on firearm safety. We are so strict about this that even one of our members, who happens to be a gunsmith, had to go through the training that our unit offers. Our captain is a very particular man and will not even allow soldiers onto the field unless they have ... passed ... our training. As he always says it's about safety. I will admit to having mixed feelings on this subject. In the end I will have to quote Colonel Gamble in the movie Gettysburg "Don't worry about me sir I'm the soul of caution"

No rammers in force on force but if demonstrationing firing in 9 times RAM!!!

 

[archieclement]

Safety must be ensured. I guess reality has its place too, but only with proper safety oversight.

Isn't the argument for reenactments worth based on education which would require realism?

Certainly at as a spectator at events I've always found the claim of educational or realism exaggerated. But one area that arguably had some realism was loading drill.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I've been thrown off a field and that day walked away from a unit because the Captain ordered me to fire my musket in a manner, (the muzzle in two people's ears) and I refused to fire when he demanded I fire for the perfect volley.

Your post and this thread has brought back that memory.

I now refuse to reenact at events hosted by that association! At least under they're command.

That is a silly reason to throw dlsomebody off the field. Safety first. Your CO should have been censured. Many take this hobby way to seriously. Screaming, "stand at attention when I'm talking to you private!" Is unnecessary and shows that the leader is the one out of control. Unless it in the guise of a Living History type setting or for fun.
It sounds lime your ranks were too far apart. Even with a carbine the second tank can fire over the first in proper alignment. I had a deal with some guy out here in Arizona who didn't know what's he was doing in a battle scenario commanding Cavalry. He wanted tight ranks firing independently but wanted the front rank to fall back around to reload. He had us walking on front of your own battle line while independent fire a well as volley fire was being ordered. I protested that this was completely unsafe. Having years of experience over this idiot and with most of that dismounted Cavalry I ceased to fire. Men walking front of me while I'm loading and firing. I made the mere suggestion to open ranks so they battle buddy thing couldnt take place. He wasn't having it. Screaming that I was not in command and had no authority. Safety always had authority. His answer to the problem was that there was no problem but me. That we should just work at out with each other while in simulated combat that these Ociffers always stressed to make it look real. Open order would have made it look real as well as being safe.
Oh well. That was some time ago and I now can afford to travel to events wherever they may occur. Be careful in Arizona when reenacting. ACWC being the prime example but not necessarily now. Different people probably involved now. Still...BEWARE! Also out West you can expect SWITCHCRAFT. I don't mean the electronic company. Long time participants have piles of uses equipment from 40 years of events and participants in these events. People came and go and sell or give their stuff to the unit when they vamoos! Well they can polish up a turd and switch out your new items with worn out equipment that you may not notice until later. Keep your items marked and keep them close. Their is not trust to be given out here. No matter how inclusive they make you feel.
And on that note.....
Cheers!