Question about Spencers in the SRS Database.

[bobinwmass]

In trying to do some more research about my Model 1860 Spencer Rifle serial number 7388, I realized that I did not see any separate listing for Model 1865 Spencers in the SRS Database, which makes me wonder if the Model 1865 numbers are mixed in the same list as the Model 1860's. For example, take a look at the range below that my rifle falls into. Everything between 7021 and 8622 identified as a Model 1860 rifle (60R at the end of the serial number) is shown as being issued to Company B or G of the 8th Indiana Volunteer Cavalry. All the other guns in that range are identified as carbines (C after the serial number), many going to Company B of the 1st Kentucky Volunteer Cavalry, but are not identified as to what model carbine. It is pretty much accepted that Spencer was not making and delivering Model 1860 carbines for use by the Government until we get up into the 11,000 range. The 1st Kentucky Cavalry was a 3 year regiment that was formed in 1861 and the majority of the regiment mustered out in December 1864, However, veterans and new recruits were consolidated into a battalion of 3 companies and served at various points in Kentucky until September 1865, operating against guerillas and maintaining order. I've read that the Model 1865 carbines began being issued to troops in April 1865. Given the date of January 22, 1865 associated with the carbines below, if these were Model 1860 carbines that were being turned in by the 3 year regiment that had just mustered out, it means that Spencer was apparently making a significant number of carbines prior to the 11,000 range. If these were Model 1865 carbines being issued to the 3 company battalion now coming into service, it would mean Model 1865 carbines were issued well before April 1865. Anyone have any ideas or information?

7021 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
7134 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
726260R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7290 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
7291 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
729660R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
730660R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
733360R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7343 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
735060R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
738560R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7409 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
742660R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
743260R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
744260R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
748760R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7521 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
753160R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7536 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
7537 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
754860R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
755360R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
757560R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7575 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
7582 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
759760R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7621 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
763560R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
765460R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
766960R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
768960R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7705 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
781460R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
785460R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7859 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
790460R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
7942 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
796160R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7976 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV
802060R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
802760R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
802960R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
803860R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
805060R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
806060R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
812060R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
812960R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
813460R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
816260R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
818560R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
823860R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
826760R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
828360R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
828760R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
828960R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
829160R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
829260R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
8314 C 072773TONKAWA SCOUTS FT GRIFFIN
833660R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
833760R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
833960R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
834460R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
835460R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
839460R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
841260R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
842760R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
844160R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
846460R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
847060R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
847560R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
854560R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
855560R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
856460R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
857460R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV
858060R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
862260R CO G 8TH IND VOL CAV

 

[UCVRelics]

They are intermingled. On the reissues etc, A lot of Spencer were swapped around or given up to Gen Wilson during the winter of 64 as he wanted all trooper armed with the. In fact he had to leave a lot of troops behind due to the shortage of Spencers.

 

[bobinwmass]

They are intermingled. On the reissues etc, A lot of Spencer were swapped around or given up to Gen Wilson during the winter of 64 as he wanted all trooper armed with the. In fact he had to leave a lot of troops behind due to the shortage of Spencers.
View attachment 435961

Since intermingled, what do you think about the carbines in the 7000 range and the date 1-22-65?. Model 1860's made earlier than most people thought, or Model 1865's issued earlier than previously reported?

 

[bobinwmass]

Think we have some proof that the carbines are Model 1865's, as in the list of serial numbers we have a set of duplicates on 7575, one being an 1860 Rifle, so the carbine must be an 1865. So does that mean the carbine was issued on 1-22-65?

757560R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7575 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV

 

[UCVRelics]

Think we have some proof that the carbines are Model 1865's, as in the list of serial numbers we have a set of duplicates on 7575, one being an 1860 Rifle, so the carbine must be an 1865. So does that mean the carbine was issued on 1-22-65?

757560R CO B 8TH IND VOL CAV
7575 C 012265CO B 1ST KY VOL CAV

I have never believed that the 65 weren't issued till April. Since you are a big sword collection I'll put it this way. I have seen many Ames model 1860 swwords with 1858 dates. The model 1860 serial # ran to 67,000 and the 65's to 34,000 so this shows that they were produced and issued prior to April.

 

[bobinwmass]

Rather like how the deliveries of the Model 1864 marked Burnside carbines actually began in 1863. With the Model 1865 Spencer carbine the serial number search would be even more confusing, as there were two makers, The Spencer company and Burnside Rifle company, each using their own run of serial numbers. This means there could be two Model 1865 carbines out there with serial number 7575.

 

[bobinwmass]

If Model 1865 carbines were delivered prior to April 1865, I would think they would have to be guns made by the Burnside Rifle Company. I believe the Spencer company kept making Model 1860 carbines right up to the end of the war. The Burnside Rifle Company received a contract for 35,000 Spencer Carbines in June 1864, and only made Model 1865's.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Interesting question, for sure.

We must remember how the Springfield Research Service (SRS) lists were put together.
Frank Mallory as a researcher often viewed original handwritten records in the National Archives. He was not looking for lists of serial numbers of weapons, but as he happened to see these, he copied down the info and kept it. After years of keeping these lists, he started to publish them in book form.

The original archive records are handwritten and often difficult to decipher. I've seem some photocopies of such listings, and the man who wrote the list might have been able to clearly read his own handwriting, but it might be unclear to others (such as Frank Mallory, the man who made these SRS lists).

I believe some of Frank's lists were not photocopied, but Frank Mallory wrote down the information into a list he made in his own handwriting. Today, we are all so used to the idea that we can make photocopies of everything, or take photos of it (with our cellphone) or dictate the information into a small recorder (or our cellphones) - but not so long ago, these devices were not invented or not routinely available.

So, this listing of Co. B 1st Kentucky cavalry arms we are looking at was the result of Frank Mallory finding a list of serial numbers of Spencers in the possession of only one company of the 1st Kentucky Cavalry, Company B. The SRS as published shows the listing was dated January 22, 1865.

The list might have been of

• Spencers issued on January 22, 1865 (sometimes the Company Clerk made a list of newly issued arms) or
• Spencers on hand on January 22, 1865 (sometimes the Company Clerk made a list of equipment on hand on some important date - you'll see such lists made at the time troops were preparing for transport to Texas under Custer to keep the peace after the War) or
• Spencers turned in by this unit on January 22, 1865.

The Spencer list for Company B of the 1st Kentucky Cavalry is likely a single document, dated at one place, one time by one handwritten line. If Frank Mallory misread the month, or that he copied that month incorrectly, or misread that month from his notes as he completed his book, then the SRS listing would show the wrong date for all the Spencers on that list.

If the date was written as 1/22/65, in that old flowing ink script, you'll often see an upstroke to the top of the digit "1", sticking out to the left of the down-stroke, and that can look similar to a "9"

That one ink stroke could have been a "9" which would be for September 1865, the month the unit disbanded, and not a "1" for January, 1865, which would be several months before the commonly accepted date that Model 1865 Spencers were issued.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I have never believed that the 65 weren't issued till April. Since you are a big sword collection I'll put it this way. I have seen many Ames model 1860 swwords with 1858 dates. The model 1860 serial # ran to 67,000 and the 65's to 34,000 so this shows that they were produced and issued prior to April.

As for the Model 1860 swords, I think "Model 1860" is a collectors name for these, and they were identified only as the "new pattern" sabers in the records of Ames and the government. The first contract for these was an order for 800 given to Ames in 1858. I am sure that this order didn't specify that Ames was to make and stamp the date of "1858" on 800 sabers named in the order as "Model 1860" sabers.

 

[rob63]

If Model 1865 carbines were delivered prior to April 1865, I would think they would have to be guns made by the Burnside Rifle Company. I believe the Spencer company kept making Model 1860 carbines right up to the end of the war. The Burnside Rifle Company received a contract for 35,000 Spencer Carbines in June 1864, and only made Model 1865's.

John D. McAulay, in Carbines of the Civil War, agrees with this. Spencer continued to mark them as Model 1860 throughout production, while Burnside production was marked as Model 1865.

He also gives the month to month deliveries of each company.

The Spencer company did not make its final delivery until January of 1866, well after the war was over. The final 18,500 deliveries were all made after Appomattox.

The Burnside Company did not make the first delivery of the Model 1865 until April 15, 1865. They then delivered them at a consistent rate of 1,000 per week until Oct. 31, 1865 for a total of 30,496. Thus, all deliveries of the Model 1865 occurred after the war was over.

Of the 95,000 Spencer's delivered, 49,000 were delivered after the war.

If a Spencer is marked Model 1865, it was not used in the war.

The information on contracts and deliveries comes from Executive Document 99 of the 40th Congress, second session, published in 1867. It is a full accounting of Federal purchases during the war.

 

[bobinwmass]

If that's the case, then you have to wonder about the dependability of the SRS database overall. Any serial number could contain a digit with a similar transcription error. There must be a lot of incorrect numbers listed. In fact, I think I remember seeing a couple Spencers listed in the 80,000 to 90,000 range, though if I remember correctly they actually ended a bit above 61,000.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

If that's the case, then you have to wonder about the dependability of the SRS database overall. Any serial number could contain a digit with a similar transcription error. There must be a lot of incorrect numbers listed. In fact, I think I remember seeing a couple Spencers listed in the 80,000 to 90,000 range, though if I remember correctly they actually ended a bit above 61,000.

Yes, there are errors, but it is the reference we have available. Original records are not as easily available as they once were, and some have been misfiled and so are not available if you go to look for them.

 

[rob63]

I don't have access to the SRS database, but considering that the Spencer continued to be issued after the Civil War was over, is it possible that the records indicating issue of high numbered Spencer's are from the post-war period? Does the SRS indicate when the various records are from?

 

[rob63]

Going back to your original question, and again referring to McAulay's books...

The first delivery of Spencer carbines is recorded as being on Oct. 3rd, 1863 on a contract issued on July 13, 1863.

There was also a delivery of 2,000 rifles on Oct. 2nd, 1863 on a contract issued on Sept. 28th, 1863. There were further deliveries of another 1,969 rifles during 1864 on three separate contracts issued in 1864.

Thus, it is reasonable to presume that there was intermingling of rifle and carbine serial numbers, and that carbine numbers began well before the 11,000 number that you stated previously since rifle deliveries were still in the 7,000-8,000 range when carbine production began.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I don't have access to the SRS database, but considering that the Spencer continued to be issued after the Civil War was over, is it possible that the records indicating issue of high numbered Spencer's are from the post-war period? Does the SRS indicate when the various records are from?

Each entry in the SRS shows the date of that record that contained the information on that serial number.

 

[rob63]

Giving you more info on rifle deliveries:

Navy
703 on 2/3/63
100 on 8/18/63
200 on 9/17/63
6 on 8/27/67

Army
500 on 12/31/62
500 on 1/17/63
1,200 on 2/23/63
1,500 on 4/13/63
500 on 4/22/63
500 on 4/29/63
500 on 5/9/63
500 on 5/19/63
500 on 5/30/63
500 on 6/9/63
500 on 6/16/63
302 on 6/29/63
2,000 on 10/2/63
100 on 4/22/64
1,868 on 5/14/64
1 on 10/26/64

You should be able to get some idea of probable serial numbers when carbine production began from that considering the previously given contract dates and deliveries for the first carbines, as well as a rough idea when your rifle was made. The big problem with coming up with an exact serial number for the beginning of carbine production is that they were delivering 500 rifles every 10 days and there was a considerable gap between the date of the first carbine contract and the first delivery, so who knows?

 

[bobinwmass]

John D. McAulay, in Carbines of the Civil War, agrees with this. Spencer continued to mark them as Model 1860 throughout production, while Burnside production was marked as Model 1865.

He also gives the month to month deliveries of each company.

The Spencer company did not make its final delivery until January of 1866, well after the war was over. The final 18,500 deliveries were all made after Appomattox.

The Burnside Company did not make the first delivery of the Model 1865 until April 15, 1865. They then delivered them at a consistent rate of 1,000 per week until Oct. 31, 1865 for a total of 30,496. Thus, all deliveries of the Model 1865 occurred after the war was over.

Of the 95,000 Spencer's delivered, 49,000 were delivered after the war.

If a Spencer is marked Model 1865, it was not used in the war.

The information on contracts and deliveries comes from Executive Document 99 of the 40th Congress, second session, published in 1867. It is a full accounting of Federal purchases during the war.

I don't think you can blanketly say that Model 1865's were not used in the war. Johnston did not surrender until early May, Watie did not surrender until June 23, 1865. President Johnson officially did not declare an end to war until the summer of 1866. In the meantime units like Company B 1st Kentucky Cavalry had been issued and were using Model 1865's in in search of guerrillas and keeping peace. Even given your dates of the first Burnsides being issued in April, one could factually argue that a significant number of Burnside Model 1865's was issued and in use well before the official end of the War. They were just issued too late to be used in any major engagements.

 

[bobinwmass]

Going back to your original question, and again referring to McAulay's books...

The first delivery of Spencer carbines is recorded as being on Oct. 3rd, 1863 on a contract issued on July 13, 1863.

There was also a delivery of 2,000 rifles on Oct. 2nd, 1863 on a contract issued on Sept. 28th, 1863. There were further deliveries of another 1,969 rifles during 1864 on three separate contracts issued in 1864.

Thus, it is reasonable to presume that there was intermingling of rifle and carbine serial numbers, and that carbine numbers began well before the 11,000 number that you stated previously since rifle deliveries were still in the 7,000-8,000 range when carbine production began.

According to post below, on this site in 2013, it looks like by the beginning of July, when only rifles were still being delivered, we were already well beyond the 7000 range.

"Here is a quick analysis of the delivery dates etc from info in Marcot's book. This assumes the deliveries were in SN order (a reasonable assumption, but not confirmed by any data). Assuming some delay between delivery and issuance, the delivery dates correspond well with the issue dates in the table posted above.

Delivery Payment Quantity Min_SN Max_SN Comments
12/31/62 1/8/63 500 1000 1499 First SN was 1000
1/17/63 1/26/63 500 1500 1999
2/23/63 3/4/63 1200 2000 3199
4/13/63 4/22/63 1500 3200 4699 Wilder IDed Guns in this SN block
4/22/63 4/29/63 500 4700 5199 Wilder IDed Guns in this SN block
4/29/63 5/6/63 500 5200 5699 Wilder IDed Guns in this SN block
5/9/63 5/15/63 500 5700 6199 Wilder IDed Guns in this SN block
5/19/63 5/25/63 500 6200 6699 Wilder IDed Guns in this SN block
5/30/63 6/5/63 500 6700 7199
6/9/63 6/15/63 500 7200 7699
6/20/63 500 7700 8199
6/29/63 7/1/63 302 8200 8501
Total Rifles 7502"

I believe any overlap of carbines and rifles likely occurred in the 10000 to 12000 range, towards October.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Going back to your original question, and again referring to McAulay's books...

The first delivery of Spencer carbines is recorded as being on Oct. 3rd, 1863 on a contract issued on July 13, 1863.

There was also a delivery of 2,000 rifles on Oct. 2nd, 1863 on a contract issued on Sept. 28th, 1863. There were further deliveries of another 1,969 rifles during 1864 on three separate contracts issued in 1864.

Thus, it is reasonable to presume that there was intermingling of rifle and carbine serial numbers, and that carbine numbers began well before the 11,000 number that you stated previously since rifle deliveries were still in the 7,000-8,000 range when carbine production began.

Remember that the SRS serial listings are just the date of the record of the document Frank Mallory found in the archives - usually not the date of delivery to the Army.

I have Spencer Rifle 9005 which is listed in the SRS for only one date, 01/10/1865 to Co. H of the 28th Kentucky Infantry. When I got Charlie Pate to research the actual archive records, he discovered TWO listings for the same rifle, both the same Company H, 28th Kentucky infantry. The first was 01/10/65, when it was shown as in the possession of Andrew Casteel. This entry was amended to show that the rifle was now in the hands of Sgt. Thomas Mann of this same company (on 01/10/65, Casteel had this rifle, and Mann had another rifle; Casteel mustered out in May, 1865 and his rifle must have done to Mann), and Pate also found a listing dated 07/13/65 showing it was still in the possession of Sgt. Mann. Mann served in post-war Texas, and when he mustered out 12/14/65, he paid $10 to retain his Spencer Rifle. I bought it southern Indiana, just north of the Kentucky border, so he must have taken it home with him.

Now, Pate found that Company H of the 28th Kentucky had received 40 Spencer Rifles in late 1863. My rifle 9005 may have been part of this initial issuance, but there is no listing of these serials.

SRS caught the first date, the 01/10/65 date, but missed the second, 07/13/65.

 

[bobinwmass]

Going back to your original question, and again referring to McAulay's books...

The first delivery of Spencer carbines is recorded as being on Oct. 3rd, 1863 on a contract issued on July 13, 1863.

There was also a delivery of 2,000 rifles on Oct. 2nd, 1863 on a contract issued on Sept. 28th, 1863. There were further deliveries of another 1,969 rifles during 1864 on three separate contracts issued in 1864.

Thus, it is reasonable to presume that there was intermingling of rifle and carbine serial numbers, and that carbine numbers began well before the 11,000 number that you stated previously since rifle deliveries were still in the 7,000-8,000 range when carbine production began.

The 2000 rifles delivered to the government on October 2nd were those previously ordered by Massachusetts. On August 18th 1863 (apparently after the first contract was nearing completion) Chief of Ordnance General Ripley wrote to the Spencer company asking when they could deliver 2500 more rifles. The company replied they were currently making 2000 for the Massachusetts contract. On September 28th Ripley coctacted the governor requesting those rifles for the federal government, and they were turned over on October 2nd. The same thing happened again when Massachusetts was going to get their replacement rifles in 1864. After receiving 1500 rifles, the state turned over 1368 to the feds, and relinquished delivery of the final 500 to the Federal government. I think all the Model 1860 rifles made once Spencer started making Model 1860 carbines were meant to fulfill the Massachusetts contract, but the Federal government kept requesting them instead. The same thing happened to 1176 Model 1860 carbines. Massachusetts finally got their rifles and carbines in 1865, in Model 1865 version.