Quantrill. Good soldier?

[diane]

Kbear you bring up a very good point. ( I'm on a new to me tablet and haven't figured out how to post quotes)

It's not appropriet for this post, but what about the jayhawker and redlegs out of Kansas---were they any better worse than the Missouri bushwhackers? Sounds like a good topic. I think they've been overlooked
Maybe later this weekend?

I'd like to learn more about that. Quantrill wasn't a hero but there were reasons for his actions. I was thinking about the brutal guerrilla war in west Tennessee, for instance - some Union forces, like those under Hurst, caused Confederate partisans to become much more violent than maybe they would have been otherwise. Both sides had their versions of Bloody Bill - I don't think there's much argument that he was more than half a bubble out of plumb!

 

[johan_steele]

Just putting this out there - what's the likelihood that if Quantrill had been a union guerrilla instead of confederate, he would be praised as a hero? We tend to overlook actions of union men who were no less ruthless.

I for one would. A murderer is a murderer regardless of the color of the uniform.

I guarantee you if Quantrill had done the same actions under the US flag the usual suspects would raise a hue n cry. But as he fought for the slaveocracy he is their hero.

 

[johan_steele]

There is a difference between a soldier and a murderer. Some don't see it but a veteran does and being lumped in with the likes of Quantrill is no compliment.

Calling Quantrill a soldier is as inappropriate as calling Lee a guerrilla.

 

[Patrick H]

Kbear you bring up a very good point. ( I'm on a new to me tablet and haven't figured out how to post quotes)

It's not appropriet for this post, but what about the jayhawker and redlegs out of Kansas---were they any better worse than the Missouri bushwhackers? Sounds like a good topic. I think they've been overlooked
Maybe later this weekend?

It's a good question and I think the answer is that they were all individuals and we should judge them individually.

Buffalo Bill Cody was a Redleg. He is quoted by Donald Gilmore has having said : "...and a bigger gang of thieves never existed." I don't know that he ever murdered anyone and he's generally regarded as a hero.

Charles Jennison was leader of the 7th Kansas Cavalry (Jennison's Jayhawkers) and was despised in Missouri. He was totally ruthless and was said to have done more for the rebel cause in Missouri than any Confederate recruiting officer. Even William Elsey Connelley agreed that he probably should have been hung. Jim Lane was a U. S. Senator and a general and was well connected politically. He was reviled in Missouri for having led numerous jayhawking raids into the state. He certainly did his share of thieving and burning and was a particular target of Quantrill during the Lawrence raid.

 

[leftyhunter]

Just putting this out there - what's the likelihood that if Quantrill had been a union guerrilla instead of confederate, he would be praised as a hero? We tend to overlook actions of union men who were no less ruthless.

If you can point out Unionist guerrillas that murdered children such as Lawrence Kn then you have a good point. Has far as rape that's more murky since it was not unknown among CSA guerrillas. On the other hand all armies rape but at least on the Union side some where punished. We have a few past threads that have dealt with that issue. Has far as stealing and arson no one has a monopoly on that issue. Then again Unionist guerrillas where not supporting slavery.
Leftyhunter

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Just putting this out there - what's the likelihood that if Quantrill had been a union guerrilla instead of confederate, he would be praised as a hero? We tend to overlook actions of union men who were no less ruthless.

Are any Jayhawkers considered heroes? I don't think I've heard of any. Maybe in their time, but not long after that. Contrast that with Quantrill or the James brothers.

 

[diane]

Are any Jayhawkers considered heroes? I don't think I've heard of any. Maybe in their time, but not long after that. Contrast that with Quantrill or the James brothers.

That's another angle to Quantrill - quite a few Western outlaw legends came out of his command...and are considered heroes by many. Some of it was men not able to wind down from the war - like the mercenaries in Africa after WWII - and some of it was anger at loss, at the victor. And...some of it was easy pickins out West because there's no law!

 

[Poor Private]

If you can point out Unionist guerrillas that murdered children such as Lawrence Kn then you have a good point. Has far as rape that's more murky since it was not unknown among CSA guerrillas. On the other hand all armies rape but at least on the Union side some where punished. We have a few past threads that have dealt with that issue. Has far as stealing and arson no one has a monopoly on that issue. Then again Unionist guerrillas where not supporting slavery.
Leftyhunter

How about the sacking of Osceola by Lane? He plundered and burned the town and executed 9 citizens. taking 350 horses, 900 cattle, 3000 bags of flour and carriages and wagons which were used to transport his drunk and passed out men. only 3 buildings were left of the 800 that comprised the town. This happen in Sept of 1861.
Another great hero was Charles R. Jennison of the 7th Kansas Volunteer Cavalry.
Both of those were great hero of the Union- yep yuppers.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

How about the sacking of Osceola by Lane? (snip)
Another great hero was Charles R. Jennison of the 7th Kansas Volunteer Cavalry.
Both of those were great hero of the Union- yep yuppers.

You're conflating "on the Union side" with "Union hero".

 

[leftyhunter]

How about the sacking of Osceola by Lane? He plundered and burned the town and executed 9 citizens. taking 350 horses, 900 cattle, 3000 bags of flour and carriages and wagons which were used to transport his drunk and passed out men. only 3 buildings were left of the 800 that comprised the town. This happen in Sept of 1861.
Another great hero was Charles R. Jennison of the 7th Kansas Volunteer Cavalry.
Both of those were great hero of the Union- yep yuppers.

They weren't Unionist guerrillas. Has far as burning down towns ever heard of Chambersburg Pennsylvania? Lots of folks got executed on both sides. Did the Jayhakers kill kids?
Leftyhunter

 

[Patrick H]

They weren't Unionist guerrillas. Has far as burning down towns ever heard of Chambersburg Pennsylvania? Lots of folks got executed on both sides. Did the Jayhakers kill kids?
Leftyhunter

Lefty,
To be realistic, Jim Lane's troops might have been more or less sanctioned by the Feds for a while. Complaints were brought against them to Lincoln, but Lane was well enough connected to maintain a command. Were they technically guerrillas in the sense that we are discussing here? No, they weren't. Did they ACT like freebooting guerrillas? OF COURSE they did on the Osceola raidand other raids and we all know that.

Let's don't start picking nits here because we all know there was plenty of guilt to go around on both sides. Plenty of outrageous behavior: Plenty of stealing. Plenty of burning out. Plenty of shootings. Plenty of livestock rustling. Plenty of dispossessing families of their homes. Plenty of hangings. Plenty of torture to get information. Plenty of outrages committed by both sides.

Let's don't start trying to keep a score about which side committed the most and the worst outrages, because there is just no future in that. Heck, if we go there, we'll start fighting the darned war all over again.

Please...let's make it our mission to see that others just don't go there!

 

[leftyhunter]

Lefty,
To be realistic, Jim Lane's troops might have been more or less sanctioned by the Feds for a while. Complaints were brought against them to Lincoln, but Lane was well enough connected to maintain a command. Were they technically guerrillas in the sense that we are discussing here? No, they weren't. Did they ACT like freebooting guerrillas? OF COURSE they did on the Osceola raidand other raids and we all know that.

Let's don't start picking nits here because we all know there was plenty of guilt to go around on both sides. Plenty of outrageous behavior: Plenty of stealing. Plenty of burning out. Plenty of shootings. Plenty of livestock rustling. Plenty of dispossessing families of their homes. Plenty of hangings. Plenty of torture to get information. Plenty of outrages committed by both sides.

Let's don't start trying to keep a score about which side committed the most and the worst outrages, because there is just no future in that. Heck, if we go there, we'll start fighting the darned war all over again.

Please...let's make it our mission to see that others just don't go there!

No problem .General Hallack had a major problem with the boys from Kansas. On the other hand to be fair and balanced if someone brings up Union war crimes then by all means it is more then fair to show Confederate war crimes.
Leftyhunter

 

[major bill]

I'd like to learn more about that. Quantrill wasn't a hero but there were reasons for his actions.

Even the worse criminals have reasons for what they do. However, soldiers are expected to behave in a soldierly manner. This comes done to to if Quantrill acted as a soldier or not. The fact that Quantrill had some reasons for his action does not excuse him for the things he did. The same goes for Union leaders as well. Soldiers simply are not allowed to act on some "reason". Soldiers conduct themselves as soldiers and are bound by the rules of war in force at the time of the war.

 

[alexjack]

I am reading John McCorkles narrative on Patrick H's recommendation and having first read Connelley's book and formed one opinion of Quantrill, it's strange to be reading McCorkles and being presented with an entirely different view, a Quantrill who was seeking revenge for a dead brother murdered by Jayhawkers, a Quantrill rushing his command over the country to try to save Missouri towns from Federal depredations, a Quantrill reluctantly fighting at all but fighting within the rules of 'civilised' warfare. If I'd picked up McCorkles book first that would have been the impression of Quantrill I'd have gone away with.

 

[diane]

Even the worse criminals have reasons for what they do. However, soldiers are expected to behave in a soldierly manner. This comes done to to if Quantrill acted as a soldier or not. The fact that Quantrill had some reasons for his action does not excuse him for the things he did. The same goes for Union leaders as well. Soldiers simply are not allowed to act on some "reason". Soldiers conduct themselves as soldiers and are bound by the rules of war in force at the time of the war.

Unless they aren't soldiers. Having a reason doesn't mean having an excuse, but there really are things that make one go haywire, even for a short time. When Quantrill was teaching there wasn't anything to indicate what was to come. Seemed ok - some of his men not so. When Anderson became Bloody Bill, nobody who had known him before was that surprised. He was one of those people you could hear ticking when they walked by. As alexjack up above points out, there are many interpretations of Quantrill, from hideous murderer to sterling patriot, and it leaves you asking who was this guy really?

But, as others have mentioned, the Quantrills and Lanes and all others have one heck of a backdrop in Missouri. How bad was it? Well, the story goes that Missourian Harry Truman had his mom visit the White House during his presidency. Her family had been removed when the farmers were burned out along the border and she remembered all of it. When she arrived, Truman happily greeted her and said, "Mother, we've got a treat for you. We've specially prepared a room for your stay - the Lincoln Bedroom." His mom stared steel through him, picked up her bags and headed for the front door. She blamed Lincoln for the order that burned up her family's farm and wasn't over it by a long shot, even though it was the middle of the next century!

 

[diane]

This revisionism about Quantrill which tries to make him into something other than a murderous thug seems unfortunate. According to Donnelson, if I remember correctly, Quantrill had been murdering people in Kansas and the West well before he became any kind of "guerrilla." I doubt that Quantrill's men became outlaws because of the war, it's more likely that he recruited murderers and thieves as, according to Donnelson, that's simply who he was.

Quantrill and his men wintered in North Texas where the locals at first welcomed them as they'd been victimized by bandits and cattle rustlers who'd escape back across the Red River and into the Indian Territories. But they'd soon had enough as they discovered that Quantrill and his gang were also cattle rustlers, thieves until finally General McCullough rid the area of them. McCullough had been a Ranger and Sheriff on the frontier near San Antonio, so he was probably acquainted with Quantrill's type of murdering outlaw.

I think there's a lot of truth in that, although I'm not convinced Quantrill was bad to the bone. But he did attract a certain type. However, some of those 'certain types' were youngsters who were at a point in life where they could go one way or the other, depending on the push. The push came as events in the war. Missouri, well before the war, attracted an element, I guess you'd say, with the argument about slavery or no slavery, such as John Brown. Was he a murdering thug or a valiant freedom fighter? Nuts or not? Would John Brown have been a killer if he'd stayed a farmer elsewhere and not come west of the Mississippi? Considering how many pivotal characters came out of the Trans-Mississippi, it's peculiar that it's so little studied.

 

[johan_steele]

I think there's a lot of truth in that, although I'm not convinced Quantrill was bad to the bone. But he did attract a certain type. However, some of those 'certain types' were youngsters who were at a point in life where they could go one way or the other, depending on the push. The push came as events in the war. Missouri, well before the war, attracted an element, I guess you'd say, with the argument about slavery or no slavery, such as John Brown. Was he a murdering thug or a valiant freedom fighter? Nuts or not? Would John Brown have been a killer if he'd stayed a farmer elsewhere and not come west of the Mississippi? Considering how many pivotal characters came out of the Trans-Mississippi, it's peculiar that it's so little studied.

That is well said. I think the tran Mississippi is so overlooked is exactly because neither side has a lot to be proud of. At least east of the Mississippi the belligerents had something vaguely honorable in their purpose & goals.

 

[JerseyBart]

@johan_steele and @Rebforever

While moderators are looking over a few posts, let's tone down the dramatics Johan and rebforever.
Posted as moderator.

 

[diane]

That is well said. I think the tran Mississippi is so overlooked is exactly because neither side has a lot to be proud of. At least east of the Mississippi the belligerents had something vaguely honorable in their purpose & goals.

Fair enough! That holds true of Tennessee, too, and a few other places. War rarely brings out the best in a person. But I kind of think Clint Eastwood had a point with the opening scenes of The Outlaw Josey Wales - Redlegs did in his family and burned his farm and, while he's sitting there on the graves of his wife and kid, the smouldering ruins of his home behind him, here comes Bill Anderson. "Want to get back at them who done this?" "Yeah." "Then come with us." I think there were quite a few in Josey's category, both sides.

 

[leftyhunter]

Fair enough! That holds true of Tennessee, too, and a few other places. War rarely brings out the best in a person. But I kind of think Clint Eastwood had a point with the opening scenes of The Outlaw Josey Wales - Redlegs did in his family and burned his farm and, while he's sitting there on the graves of his wife and kid, the smouldering ruins of his home behind him, here comes Bill Anderson. "Want to get back at them who done this?" "Yeah." "Then come with us." I think there were quite a few in Josey's category, both sides.

The Younger brothers would be a great real life example of the above.
Leftyhunter