Quaker Guns - Treasure or Trash?

vmicraig

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Mar 12, 2018
Location
London, England
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One man's trash is another man's treasure. I'm curious as to everyone's opinion on Quaker guns. By Quaker, I'm referring to the altered, shortened or lightened rifles (many after the war and prior to auction) for common boys Brigades, cadet and military academies, and surely, for simple commercial profit. (Quaker guns can also refer to those guns with barrels replaced by wooden rods, etc, but I'm only referring to the first example for purposes of this post).

Depending on the source, I've read of some instances wherein cavalry and artillery units allegedly cut down full-sized weapons into carbine-sized guns, but am of the opinion that if this was done, it was most likely in very small numbers and probably late in the war and mainly among CSA cavalry units that did not have the industrial supply source as that of the Union. If I had to guess, the vast majority of Quaker guns on the market were probably never cut down to carbines for war use, but are most likely post-war cutdown by companies like Bannerman for sale to military schools, etc. I could be wrong, so please - if anyone has Quaker carbine examples wherein muskets or rifles were cut down for unit use, please share your stories.

Years back, I picked up the pictured M1861 Trenton contract Quaker gun or "carbine" as it was labeled at a Lexington, Virginia antique store. It was dust covered and had no ramrod, a broken wrist, but a clean lockplate. But for $200, I considered it a steal for the lockplate alone. It was once full sized and has a couple legible numbers on it - "171" at the heel of the butt (probably a rack number) and 33 at the barrel tang. Any idea on those numbers? It still bears a faint cartouche and a NJ barrel stamp, as well as the VP stamp.

Anyway, tell me your opinions on Quaker guns. Got any in your collections? Do you consider them important in the grouping of ACW weapons? Would you spend money on one if it happened your way? Why/Why not? Do you think they are trash or treasure?


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This comes direct from Springfield Armory, btw. I presume they are only referring to Springfield models, not contract guns, but the summary at the bottom is probably the same:

In 1866, records indicate that the Springfield Armory had 775 arms described as "Springfield Muskets, short, cal. 58." These were mostly M1863 Type II rifle-muskets that had suffered some damage to the muzzle during the Civil War, so Springfield cut 4" off the barrel and stock and converted them to two-band configuration. In June of 1866, Captain Chaffee reports, "There are now at the Armory ready for issue, several hundred repaired arms corresponding to the rifle musket M1861, except that the barrels and stocks are four inches shorter, and they have two bands instead of three. They are handsome and clearly resemble the Cadet musket."

Springfield Armory requested that these be issued as cadet weapons to West Point. This evidently failed as work began almost immediately on a Trapdoor cadet. But it is known that they were issued, as in 1869 General Dyer authorized a sale of 150 of them to Rhode Island for use as Cadet Muskets.

These could very well be what has been called the "Artillery Model." The assumption has been for years that these were used in the Civil War though no one has ever found paperwork as to where the modifications took place, and these were neatly modified.

This explanation makes the most sense. They were in fact damaged during the Civil War and came back here and subsequently repaired and issued as "Springfield Muskets, short, cal. 58" arms. As late as 1884, these arms were being sold for $3.00 each to colleges such as Joe Brown University of Dalton, Ga., as well as Greylock Institute of Williamston, Ma.

"More than infrequently, we encounter so-called artillery models of the Springfield 1861, often marked Whitney and Parker's Snow & Company. Those who accept the view that these are authentic martial arms offer a document from West Point that notes a quantity of short arms on hand. It should be obvious that these are various cadet rifles, most likely the Model 1858, a scaled down version of the Model 1855 rifled-musket. As we discussed in our book on Harpers Ferry, The Southern Arsenal, various officials of the national military academy wanted arms smaller than regulation muskets to drill the cadets. The 1807 'Indian carbine' made at Springfield Armory was first impressed, later models of 1830, 1841, and 1851 had been supplied. At least a possible prototype cadet musket is known but evidently never manufactured. Some Model 1851 cadet muskets supplied to the Virginia Military Institute on the direct order of President Zachary Taylor. It is possible that some cadet muskets were supplied to other state military academies such as the Citadel in South Carolina. Artillery muskets had indeed been made earlier and issued with some regularity. Richmond made C.S. artillery musket that perhaps for reasons of economy, there were no federal artillery muskets made either at Springfield or by private contractors during the war. Neither is there even one hint in the documentary evidence that any state contracted for artillery muskets. There were many European imports made in the length and style of artillery muskets and perhaps some of these would also show in the post-war inventories. The bottom line is that all the evidence points toward the existing shorter guns being post-war alterations. Bannerman and others had huge stocks all percussion arms and some cartridge arms declared surplus and barelyk all of Colt's resources, a war, and three years, for example, to sell off its supply of special models of 1861 after the war. Cutting down some muskets and offering them as drill, parade, and training arms was simply another bit of salesmanship to move obsolete arms." - Hartzler, Yantz, Whisker.
 
Still curious what the "33" on the tang is...I can assume 171 is a rack number, but the 33 has me puzzled. Looks nothing like a typical inspector mark or rack number.
 
At least you have the metal parts, butt plate, lockplate, bands, etc., and you could build a real rifle, while keeping the stock as a historical item. Either way it is a nice find, and a treasure.
 
Most of the aka "sporters" that were cut-down after the war were done as the one below to lighten the heaviness of these muskets. Yours still retains 2 of it barrel bands so I'm leaning to an armory cut-down.
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