P58 markings

[Lemmiwinks]

I don't know if this is the right forum to ask about this, but i recently bought a civil war era weapon (Enfield Pattern 1858). I know the confederacy imported these rifles during the war so i thought id ask here. This particular gun was brought back from Afghanistan so i don't think it was ever in the ACW. I want to know the history of this rifle and I'm hoping someone knows about the markings or can point me in the right direction. Google has not been very kind to me.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

 

[Old Soldier]

Too many names and stamps on the back of the lockplate and barrel - there was normally only one. There are also too many assembler's marks (VII s ) too. The single assembler's mark identified the parts for ONE weapon. The acceptance mark (crown over arrow) is usually upright and over the date, and the VR under the crwn should be V.R. This looks like a regulation 2-band as they were equipped with a 'bar on barrel' for the bayonet. There were some early 'bar on band' with the lug on the band. The stock stamp is not a regulation one either and it appears to have a '2' stamped underneath which is Class2 arm - not for issue, usually for accuracy/spread of shot, but was common on many colonial issue weapons.

It MAY be an old Indian Army rifle 'renovated' or put together from parts with a lock made by Holland and a barrel from Bond, but it looks as if it has been 'Khyber Pass'ed and the breech plug has been unscrewed at some time in the past. Do the bands have acceptance marks on them?

Having said that, these are quite rare rifles as only a few thousand were accepted and the replacement short rifle had a heavier barrel (5-groove @48" not the older 3-groove @78") There would have been a large stock of components left too and used for Volunteer and civilian sale. Apparently, many of these were bought in for Confederate use but they would be civilian marked and proofed.

 

[Yankeedave]

Modified 3 band?

 

[Old Soldier]

Modified 3 band?

No. It is 'to pattern'. The shortened 3-bands usually do not have the 'bar-on-band' or the pin through the band.

 

[Lemmiwinks]

Pictures of the bands. Thanks for shedding some light on this.

 

[Old Soldier]

Thanks for that. They are well worn. Look at the difference between the crowns on the bands and those elsewhere too. The lock and barrel are from a London contractor, not Enfield since it is marked TOWER on the lock and the examiner's marks are a crown over a number with no letter. Having said that, it also bears an Enfield examiners mark (crown over E over number). The bands are made by a Birmingham contractor (crown over B over number) AND Enfield. This mix is not uncommon. However, the VR on the lockplate is stamped and should be engraved and, as said earlier, the acceptance stamp on the lock is suspect. I suspect this may well be a 'real' early short rifle, but failed the accuracy tests (Class 2) and was sent out to India, possibly to one of the states or Nepal, rather than the Indian Army. They had no 'sold out of service' mark when disposed of.

The number of different makers stamps and inspectors marks also makes it suspect as an original 'original'. Is the butt plate iron. Is there an acceptance mark on the top of the barrel or civilian proofs. I am still working on the butt roundel.

 

[Old Soldier]

Talking of which. Here is a tweaked image of your photo :

I am trying to make sense of the wording for it follows no English one as the lettering and space inside the circles is too large for the standard ones. The nearest I can get is 'Ferozepore'. This was an Indian armoury serving the Punjab and NW Frontier. It may be an overstamp of the original roundel. The 10/1882 may be the strike-off date. This suggests it was supplied to India and may have been re-worked a number of times either in India, or returned to England. So, if this is true, it is an early British contract-made P1858 sergeant's short rifle which was not considered suitable for issue to the British Army and was sent to India where it was sold out of service after serving with local forces. This would explain it's appearance in Afghanistan too.