Original NCO saber?

[PVT.Halfcock]

Just picked this M1840 NCO saber up from an antique shop for $315, theres no known history to it and assume it is an original. All marks are ground off besides on the end of the scabbard, F.S.S, what could this be? Do the grinding marks appear more modern? They said the British did this when shipping to Confederates so they could distance themselves or something like that. The handle grip also feels and appears to be in very good condition perhaps meaning it was lightly used if at all. Any thoughts or opinions?

 

[Glen_C]

I've always liked 'The Sand Pebbles' more

 

[Trooper "D"]

I've always liked 'The Sand Pebbles' more

Sand Pebbles is good. Does the officer fight with that sword on that film? I don't recall.

 

[Glen_C]

Sand Pebbles is good. Does the officer fight with that sword on that film? I don't recall.

Cutlass

 

[66Jayhawk]

How many accounts do we have of these swords being wielded in battle?

I've not done the research for accounts of these swords in use, but Glen's really cool pics show them out and about. The earlier swords, though, are "beefy". As a collector, they're not just for show swords. Why wouldn't they have been used in combat when pre-civil war you're firing a single shot rifle? There are accounts of these swords in use, often labelled broadswords (short swords are often referenced, too, but appear in museums as the US M1832 artillery swords), in Bloody Kansas pre-civil war. They're in a ton of small museums around eastern Kansas. I am attaching a pic of the three I've owned (the top one is fraternal, bottom two state militia most likely - I believe the bottom to be the earliest, middle around the mid/late 1850s and top post civil war...notice the change in blade width).

Eric

 

[Glen_C]

There are photos of helmet heads from that war and one with a group of an artillery (shore?) scene. In general, there are few accounts of swords themselves, from the Seminole and Mexican War period, yet the swords existed.

Short hangers persisted in military across the globe, for centuries before the ACW and through WWII (with some today carrying old Argentine favorites in Afghanistan).

What one doesn't see is the regulation NCO and musician swords in combat, and few shown outside of parade, studio and camp. The ACW was decided through disease and artillery of all diameters.

From French pre briquet, through British artillery hangers and a Thames police cutlass. Or our own Rose and Starr short hangers before these Ames short swords; Swords in general were less carried in the USA.

As to utility, I've got stuff from the 17th century to the ACW that fall into this category and they were made to serve. They are all primarily thrusting swords and up to 25" are quite stout for that. Even a 20th century KOC sword would run one right through a stomach covered in naught but a shirt. There was probably a lot of thought behind the short 20" blade of those first Ames centurions.

Or my latest, a period cut down/refitted broad federal blade in a briquet handle

Is a Starr 1818 any less worthy?

Cheers
GC

An old Rose

 

[Glen_C]

I've not done the research for accounts of these swords in use, but Glen's really cool pics show them out and about. The earlier swords, though, are "beefy". As a collector, they're not just for show swords. Why wouldn't they have been used in combat when pre-civil war you're firing a single shot rifle? There are accounts of these swords in use, often labelled broadswords (short swords are often referenced, too, but appear in museums as the US M1832 artillery swords), in Bloody Kansas pre-civil war. They're in a ton of small museums around eastern Kansas. I am attaching a pic of the three I've owned (the top one is fraternal, bottom two state militia most likely - I believe the bottom to be the earliest, middle around the mid/late 1850s and top post civil war...notice the change in blade width).

EricView attachment 569209

The top sword is a post war military association.society sword, hence the long skimpy blade. The center is definitely late 1850s, or '60s, with a German form blade as found on the short musician blade swords. 'In general' Blades went to 25" in the 1850s, hence Harold Peterson labeling them so.

Cheers
GC

 

[Trooper "D"]

I've not done the research for accounts of these swords in use, but Glen's really cool pics show them out and about. The earlier swords, though, are "beefy". As a collector, they're not just for show swords. Why wouldn't they have been used in combat when pre-civil war you're firing a single shot rifle? There are accounts of these swords in use, often labelled broadswords (short swords are often referenced, too, but appear in museums as the US M1832 artillery swords), in Bloody Kansas pre-civil war. They're in a ton of small museums around eastern Kansas. I am attaching a pic of the three I've owned (the top one is fraternal, bottom two state militia most likely - I believe the bottom to be the earliest, middle around the mid/late 1850s and top post civil war...notice the change in blade width).

EricView attachment 569209

Very nice group. You are not kidding about the blade width. Mexican War and American Independence and 1812 all have lithographs and paintings of these rib ticklers being used in action. Leading men with a wave of the sword with a wall of bayonets right behind. I think there is one that has the officer nard kicking while running his enemy through.
Are not Hangers a little more stout? I have a modern German steel styalized Hanger I got for 25 bucks a few years ago. The blade is actually a bit brittle. Almost like it was made for the kitchen. I have any unknown source saber bayonet without a hilt. Tang is short and squared off. Fits into a Zouave scabbard perfectly. That blade has been through brush clearing and rattle snake launching. Sparked on rocks a few times. Hardest steel blade I've ever used. If swords were made like that I can see them fighting bayonets in duals and facing off other swordsman.
Thanks for the visual aide with photos. Taught me something.
Cheers!

 

[Glen_C]

Just picked this M1840 NCO saber up from an antique shop for $315, theres no known history to it and assume it is an original. All marks are ground off besides on the end of the scabbard, F.S.S, what could this be? Do the grinding marks appear more modern? They said the British did this when shipping to Confederates so they could distance themselves or something like that. The handle grip also feels and appears to be in very good condition perhaps meaning it was lightly used if at all. Any thoughts or opinions?View attachment 561573View attachment 561574View attachment 561575View attachment 561576View attachment 561577

It is always a plus when there's a scabbard