Original NCO saber?

[PVT.Halfcock]

Just picked this M1840 NCO saber up from an antique shop for $315, theres no known history to it and assume it is an original. All marks are ground off besides on the end of the scabbard, F.S.S, what could this be? Do the grinding marks appear more modern? They said the British did this when shipping to Confederates so they could distance themselves or something like that. The handle grip also feels and appears to be in very good condition perhaps meaning it was lightly used if at all. Any thoughts or opinions?

 

[R. Porter]

This looks like a US - made NCO sword. FSS are the initials for US government inspector Frederick S. Strong. He inspected NCO swords for the maker Christopher Roby in 1862 and 1863. I see the initials stamped on the scabbard drag but not on the sword. The sword doesn't necessarily have to be made by the same maker as the scabbard, they usually fit even when made by different companies. I don't know who else FSS inspected for, my source on US government inspectors isn't handy at the moment. You may also get an idea of the maker of the sword by minute details of the hilt, but again, my source on that sort of thing, in this case by Thillmann, is not handy.

On reason the maker's mark and inspection stamps do not appear on the sword blade is that it was refurbished at some point and they were polished off the blade. It is possible that the sword was captured and used by Confederates, but there is no way of knowing if this ever happened. You have a nice looking sword and importantly, you have a nice looking scabbard to go with it. I would consider it to be a Union sword. I would be proud to have a sword like that one.

My disclaimer is that I am not an expert. Even though my sources are not available there is one online that I found useful:

CW Sword Inspectors

 

[PVT.Halfcock]

So from what I can make out from the chart on the website you listed, it could be a 62' or 63' Roby production. Possibly with the stamps removed from refurbishment for possible confederate use. If not that could it be a possible manufacturing error? also im very curious what the grind marks on the blade could be? I saw some other examples with the same looking marks.

 

[PVT.Halfcock]

I also wish to restore the blade and scabbard to usable condition for reenacting. what may be the best processes for restoring the leather on the scabbard, the red felt, polishing the brass, and getting rid of the rust on the blade while being as gentle as possible?

 

[R. Porter]

The reason so few original leather scabbards are around is that they don't hold up that well. I would get a reproduction scabbard if you are going to use the original sword. Also keep in mind that the hilt would have been shiny when new and first issued to an NCO. You might want to see what reproduction NCO hilts look like after many years of reenacting to get a better idea of the darkest and most tarnished your hilt should appear. If your hilt should be lighter and less tarnished I'd get a repro to use rather than touch the patina on an original.

I've seen similar grind or polishing marks on the part of the blade next to the ricasso on a number of different types of swords but do not know the reason for them yet. On this particular sword I would suspect that there was a "U.S.", a maker's mark, inspector's mark and date of acceptance by the Army which has been polished off. There may also have been an inspection mark on the knuckle bow which was polished off. If it was originally a private purchase or sold to a militia rather than the U.S. there would probably be only a maker's mark on the blade. I think there were more with stamps polished off than were sold without government inspection stamps.

 

[66Jayhawk]

The maker mark is on the flat part of the blade up by the hilt...not sure why there are grind marks further down. It's a bit odd, but the patina looks appropriate and I would assume it's original.

Eric

 

[bobinwmass]

I think the your NCO sword is likely not a Roby, though it is currently housed in a Roby scabbard. A Roby sword would also have the F.S.S. stamped on the knucklebow, as shown in the attached photo of my Roby. Your sword appears to have the remnants of a leather washer where the blade meets the hilt, which is not found on a Roby. The knucklebow on a Roby is in a bit rounded "D" shape, while on yours it is a bit more rectangular "D". And finally on my NCO Roby and the one in Thillmann's book I count 43 rings that are made to look like simulated wire wrap. I count 47 on yours.

 

[grossenr]

I agree, Bobinmass. Your photo demonstrates how and where Mr. Strong placed his inspection stamps. He was very methodical. But your other observations analyzing the sword in question proves beyond any doubt that it is not a Roby sword. I would add -- and I may be corrected by others on the thread -- that Strong inspected all 1862 and 1863 NCO and musician swords for Roby exclusively. He inspected only for Roby.

 

[Bluebarry]

Nice NCO sword. I bought one for $12.00 in 1963 and still have it. Interesting side note...I had a job in a drycleaners when I was a kid and my boss was an Ex USAAF pilot who flew a B17 in WW2...He loved my NCO sword and said it was EXACTLY the same as the one he drilled with while attending the Officers Acadamy in 1939 ( I don't remember the school/acadamy) He was a 20 year man and retired as a bird Colonel about 1960. As a kid I was a bit shocked that a CW sword was still being used for drill in the 1930's.

 

[bayonet]

You have to be out of your skull to use an original "leather" scabbard for reenacting! It will get destroyed. Use a repo scabbard, no loss there. Years ago I got a Collins NCO sword for $150 but no scabbard. It's just me I shy away from original leather scabbards, too much work to preserve plus most are already beat up.

 

[PVT.Halfcock]

You have to be out of your skull to use an original "leather" scabbard for reenacting! It will get destroyed. Use a repo scabbard, no loss there. Years ago I got a Collins NCO sword for $150 but no scabbard. It's just me I shy away from original leather scabbards, too much work to preserve plus most are already beat up.

I cant find a scabbard to buy, I would have to buy the sword with it and I dont wanna spend more money on it. I likely would use it for formal occasion, parade, dances, etc. Even then I would be very careful with it. I have since reconditioned the leather and its in fairly good shape.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Just for context, this is my reproduction NCO sword, scabbard, frog, & baldric. It has suffered all manner of weather fair & foul for decades.

The hilt has never needed cleaning.

 

[Glen_C]

Pardon Our Interruption...

Pardon Our Interruption...

M1840 NCO sword scabbard 061Opens in a new window or tab

Place holders, anyway. There was another ebayer but I can't remember his shop name.

A couple of mine, nude. An 1864 Ames and a short Roby musician boy's model

 

[Old Soldier]

Yes, it is a sword, not a saber. Sabers are curved and have only one cutting edge.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Yes, it is a sword, not a saber. Sabers are curved and have only one cutting edge.

Almost accurate. My 1980 DGW Catalogue had all kinds of information throughout and that little tidbit is one of them. Curved blade has nothing to do with it. A saber that is. Plenty of straight bladed sabers. Early US Dragoon and British late 19th century onwards are examples.
Swords are sharpened on both edges. Not usually curved. All those branch of service swords and cadet swords and Knights of Colombus/Masonic swords all have two straight blade edges.
Cheers!

 

[Glen_C]

Almost accurate. My 1980 DGW Catalogue had all kinds of information throughout and that little tidbit is one of them. Curved blade has nothing to do with it. A saber that is. Plenty of straight bladed sabers. Early US Dragoon and British late 19th century onwards are examples.
Swords are sharpened on both edges. Not usually curved. All those branch of service swords and cadet swords and Knights of Colombus/Masonic swords all have two straight blade edges.
Cheers!

The 1830s/1840s militia swords were the precursor to the fraternal swords. The short/wide helmet heads gain a lot of popularity. There were earlier egg shape cruciforms in the '30s. The ones I have adopted include a later 1850s Ames, with a 25" blade and three oddballs. Two of those use musician and NCO blades. Spotting the differences between early Horstmann and Ames grips. There were many, many variations after the 1860s, with the bulk going to society use.

Cheers
GC

etc


Tim Graham and I spent a lot of time looking at the prewar stuff, and beyond but my initial interests had always been the old Ames stuff. Tim seems to have moved on.

Prices have gotten absurd

 

[Trooper "D"]

The 1830s/1840s militia swords were the precursor to the fraternal swords. The short/wide helmet heads gain a lot of popularity. There were earlier egg shape cruciforms in the '30s. The ones I have adopted include a later 1850s Ames, with a 25" blade and three oddballs. Two of those use musician and NCO blades. Spotting the differences between early Horstmann and Ames grips. There were many, many variations after the 1860s, with the bulk going to society use.

Cheers
GC

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etc


Tim Graham and I spent a lot of time looking at the prewar stuff, and beyond but my initial interests had always been the old Ames stuff. Tim seems to have moved on.


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Prices have gotten absurd



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Nice collection of swords. They are very beautiful if not really functional. Nice pics ad well. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers!

 

[Glen_C]

Quite functional, until past the war.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Quite functional, until past the war.

How many accounts do we have of these swords being wielded in battle?

 

[Trooper "D"]

Quite functional, until past the war.

The Wind and the Lion has a scene where the marines storm the local headman's abode and the officer carries the US Marine version.