Opinions on these Enfields

Johnny676767

Private
Joined
Nov 30, 2020
Hello,

I started Looking at Enfields for a CW import musket example and found these two from a seller I like and have bought from before. I am wondering if you could give me your opinions: buy, keep looking, preference. Top one is dated 1862; bottom is 1861. Similar price. Thanks.

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Gundersons! He always seems to have some quality stuff at good prices.


 
Thanks, everyone.

Is there any significance to the 1862 having 24 gauge(?) markings, while the 1861 has a 25?
25 is the original .577 (British) the 24 is for .58 (US) calibers. The first batches were off-the-shelf, later ones , especially for the Union, were bored to US caliber to ensure compatibility with US rifle muskets.
 
The wood on the 1862 is beautiful but there is something off about it but I can't put my finger on it. If I were to choose I would go for the 1861.
Now that you said it, I agree, something is off about the 1862.

I'm no expert by any means, but something just doesn't seem right. I've been glancing at the photos trying to see but no luck.
 
Seller notes on 62:

"Stock shows average wear and use overall, with numerous light to moderate handling marks overall. Ramrod channel has some old worn chipping, a well-disguised repaired crack in right forearm edge between lower and middle barrel bands, and a replaced piece of wood to left of barrel tang."

He also told me they rubbed a bit of oil on the stock. I asked about the glossy appearance.
 
The 24 bore mark means it was made in hopes of selling to the Union....but whether it went North or South, who can know?
The most interesting Southern inspected Enfield I ever owned was marked as 24 bore, and it was also marked so thoroughly by Confederate viewers that it is pictured on the fine reference book "The English Connection"
 
Most, if not all, of the Union P53s were made in Birmingham (civilian contract and NOT to the same standard as Enfield and most componenrs were NOT interchangeable) and most of the Confederate P53 were made by L.A.Co in London (exactly the same spec and pattern as Enfield ones). Any 24-bore (.58)s with Confederate association were more likely to be battlefield booty.
BTW - There were no 'hopes' of selling to the Union, they were ordered and made as such. As I have stated, the first ones were made to GB standard because those were the only parts available.
 
Most, if not all, of the Union P53s were made in Birmingham (civilian contract and NOT to the same standard as Enfield and most componenrs were NOT interchangeable) and most of the Confederate P53 were made by L.A.Co in London (exactly the same spec and pattern as Enfield ones). Any 24-bore (.58)s with Confederate association were more likely to be battlefield booty.
BTW - There were no 'hopes' of selling to the Union, they were ordered and made as such. As I have stated, the first ones were made to GB standard because those were the only parts available.
Hopes? Until cash is handed over on exchange for any item, all sales are hopes and not facts
 
The Confederates ordered arms they could not pay for when delivery day arrived, and those arms were sold to whoever had the cash to pay.
I had an 1862 dated Birmingham Model 1853 with the inspection mark for Sinclair Hamilton on both wood and on the barrel - clearly a confederate inspected arm, and it was 24 bore. It is pictured in "The English Connection" book because of those inspector marks.
 
The Confederates ordered arms they could not pay for when delivery day arrived, and those arms were sold to whoever had the cash to pay.
I had an 1862 dated Birmingham Model 1853 with the inspection mark for Sinclair Hamilton on both wood and on the barrel - clearly a confederate inspected arm, and it was 24 bore. It is pictured in "The English Connection" book because of those inspector marks.
They would have been paid for before they were loaded onto the ships to smuggle the arms through the blockade. There was no credit in those days. As I said, any captured arms would have been used by the Confederacy too. Are you saying that the Union couldn't pay?
 
As I said, the Confederates ordered arms they could not pay for when delivery day arrived, and these were sold to whoever in the world wanted them and could pay for them. This is clearly documented.
There was plenty of credit in those days. It wasn't MasterCard or Visa, it was in the form of Letters of Credit. A buyer would negotiate with a seller, and the buyer would try to put down the lowest acceptable deposit and agree to pay the rest on delivery, or, better yet, to pay another partial payment upon delivery and the balance later. No buyer would pay the full price in cash when ordering arms in 24 bore or 25 bore - just imagine writing back to your employer and telling them you had spent all the money you had, you had no arms yet, but you expected some British company to deliver them a few months! Such a buyer's agent would be fired on the spot.
Confederate inspection marks were put on in Britain, before the arms were paid for and loaded into ships. So rifle muskets made intentionally in 24 bore which have confederate inspection aka viewer's marks were inspected by confederate viewers and accepted for confederate purchase even though made in the Union 24 bore standard size. There's more than a few 24 bore Enfields in collections which also have confederate viewers' acceptance marks applied in Britain - so, made in the Union caliber of 24 bore, but inspected by confederate inspectors after made.
I think both sides would buy Enfields in either 24 bore or 25 bore in the earlier part of the War, whichever was available to them on the market.
 
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Most of the Confederate arms were bought from London Armoury Company and initially bore LONDON proofs. Many of the later ones bore no proofs, just the L.A.Co. mark. If they bear a 24 or 25 mark they were made in Birminghan - where the Union bought most of their rifles.
 

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