On Lee, Stuart, Orders, and Gettysburg....

[Eric Wittenberg]

This part is very clear; Jue 23 1861 5 p.m. You will however, be able to judge whether you can pass around their army WITHOUT HINDERANCE, doing them all the damage you can and cross the river east of the mountains. In either case, after crossing the river, you MUST move on and feel the right of Ewells troops......

According to the intelligence that Stuart had at the time, he could do just that. Between the time he got the intel and the time he arrived at Glasscock's Gap, Hancock and the II Corps had arrived, blocking his way. Stuart then decided that it was better to proceed around the II Corps than to try to double back and use the fords to the west of South Mountain.

 

[Saint Jude]

If I remember right from my reading, Lee leaned more toward verbal orders. If they were written, they were not by Lee himself but by one of the staff officers who would then take it to the recipient. So odds are Lee never saw how this order was written. I think it's safe to say if he had, he might have corrected it some.

I agree that Lee most likely never saw the written order. Makes me wonder if any commanders ever routinely checked the written versions of their orders. Anyone have any examples of commanders who did?

 

[Stone in the wall]

According to the intelligence that Stuart had at the time, he could do just that. Between the time he got the intel and the time he arrived at Glasscock's Gap, Hancock and the II Corps had arrived, blocking his way. Stuart then decided that it was better to proceed around the II Corps than to try to double back and use the fords to the west of South Mountain.

Not sure what Stuart hopes to gain by this. Hookers army has picked up on Lees movements, and is now also on the move. So now crossing to the east, or west of the army is no longer a concern. Stuart spends most of the day waiting for Hancock to move out of his path. This should be an eye opener, and is not a good way to start off any plan. Now at this point the plan also involves more risk and offers less chance of gains. Had Stuart moved west instead he would have covered a good bit of ground towards Shepherdstown.

 

[Rick Richter]

According to the intelligence that Stuart had at the time, he could do just that. Between the time he got the intel and the time he arrived at Glasscock's Gap, Hancock and the II Corps had arrived, blocking his way. Stuart then decided that it was better to proceed around the II Corps than to try to double back and use the fords to the west of South Mountain.

I agree Stuart followed orders. The terrible wording by Marshall may have confused what was MEANT with what was SAID. Lee seemed to think that Stuart would have executed his orders differently, but certainly you can't fault Stuart based on these orders as they're written.

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

I agree Stuart followed orders. The terrible wording by Marshall may have confused what was MEANT with what was SAID. Lee seemed to think that Stuart would have executed his orders differently, but certainly you can't fault Stuart based on these orders as they're written.

That's absolutely correct, and echoes a point that I have made for years about this.

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

Not sure what Stuart hopes to gain by this. Hookers army has picked up on Lees movements, and is now also on the move. So now crossing to the east, or west of the army is no longer a concern. Stuart spends most of the day waiting for Hancock to move out of his path. This should be an eye opener, and is not a good way to start off any plan. Now at this point the plan also involves more risk and offers less chance of gains. Had Stuart moved west instead he would have covered a good bit of ground towards Shepherdstown.

I disagree. Had Stuart tried to cross the river to the west of South Mountain, it would have (a) added 60 miles to his march and (b) required him to use the same roads as the infantry.

 

[Stone in the wall]

I disagree. Had Stuart tried to cross the river to the west of South Mountain, it would have (a) added 60 miles to his march and (b) required him to use the same roads as the infantry.

Good points. but I don't see the 60 miles? Stuart to had swing to the east to get around the army. Would not most of Lees infantry already be in Pa or Maryland.

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

Good points. but I don't see the 60 miles? Stuart to had swing to the east to get around the army. Would not most of Lees infantry already be in Pa or Maryland.

No. On June 23, only Ewell was across the Potomac.

 

[ivanj05]

This part is very clear; Jue 23 1861 5 p.m. You will however, be able to judge whether you can pass around their army WITHOUT HINDERANCE, doing them all the damage you can and cross the river east of the mountains. In either case, after crossing the river, you MUST move on and feel the right of Ewells troops......

Which part did Stuart not adhere to?

 

[Stone in the wall]

Which part did Stuart not adhere to?

"WITHOUT HINDERANCE"- Hooker had moved and was in Stuarts path. It would be late June 27th- early June 28th before Stuart is across the Potomac. The last of Lees troops Hood and McClaws had already crossed on the 26th. "MUST move on and feel the right of Ewells troops" Ewell had already been engaged with the enemy when Stuart arrives at Gettysburg

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

With all due respect, this is all said with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. It's one thing to make decisions in the field as events unfold and something else entirely to criticize decisions made by someone else more than 150 years later.

 

[Stone in the wall]

With all due respect, this is all said with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. It's one thing to make decisions in the field as events unfold and something else entirely to criticize decisions made by someone else more than 150 years later.

Eric, I agree with you on that. Parts of the orders are more like suggestions than orders. Believe it or not I have always been a big fan of Stuart. Just not sure he really used the best judgement here.

 

[ivanj05]

"WITHOUT HINDERANCE"- Hooker had moved and was in Stuarts path. It would be late June 27th- early June 28th before Stuart is across the Potomac. The last of Lees troops Hood and McClaws had already crossed on the 26th. "MUST move on and feel the right of Ewells troops" Ewell had already been engaged with the enemy when Stuart arrives at Gettysburg

The first is a judgement call that Stuart had to make, and made. The second, Stuart was generally attempting the entire time. He just had to find a way around the AOP. While in both cases you can question, and should, Stuart's judgement, I don't think you can accuse him of disobeying his orders.

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

The first is a judgement call that Stuart had to make, and made. The second, Stuart was generally attempting the entire time. He just had to find a way around the AOP. While in both cases you can question, and should, Stuart's judgement, I don't think you can accuse him of disobeying his orders.

Precisely correct. We argue in Plenty of Blame to Go Around that Stuart obeyed Lee's orders to the letter, but that there were lots of unanticipated intervening events that prevented things from going as planned. It is, of course, an axiom of war that no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force, as Moltke the Elder quite correctly observed. Stuart's expedition proves the truth of that axiom beyond doubt.

 

[rpkennedy]

Stuart had two options, both of which were not ideal. He could pass around the Army of the Potomac and hope that nothing else went wrong and he was able to make up some time and still reach Ewell in a timely manner or he could turn back and be at the rear of the army, not doing his job. He rolled the dice on continuing on but circumstances moved against him.

Ryan

 

[Rebelsoul]

One thing I have learned in all my years of reading and studying this war or any war is that there are so many examples of things never going the way they're planned. Life too for that matter. Murphys law and the Best laid plans of mice and men !

 

[Cavalier]

Hoping I am not coming too late to this topic! I was under the impression that one line in Lee's orders to Stuart, (don't have access to the order at hand right now), stated he should keep in contact with Ewell after crossing the Potomac. No one is a bigger fan of Stuart than I am, however I would have considered this portion of the order to be critical to the overall goals of the cavalry in the campaign and that, as chief of the ANVs cavalry, Stuart should have realized that. Thanks in advance to anyone who would care to comment.

 

[ErnieMac]

Hoping I am not coming too late to this topic! I was under the impression that one line in Lee's orders to Stuart, (don't have access to the order at hand right now), stated he should keep in contact with Ewell after crossing the Potomac. No one is a bigger fan of Stuart than I am, however I would have considered this portion of the order to be critical to the overall goals of the cavalry in the campaign and that, as chief of the ANVs cavalry, Stuart should have realized that. Thanks in advance to anyone who would care to comment.

Look at the original post in the thread. The order was not to keep in contact with Ewell, but to establish and maintain that contact. Stuart tried hard to do so, but was not successful.

 

[David H.]

Thank you to Mr. Wittenberg for once again setting the record straight and hopefully ending any debate on if Stuart followed orders. Maybe this subject shows the impact of "Killer Angels" - it created a lot of interest, but not all the author's history was accurate.

 

[Cavalier]

@ErnieMac. Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, I forgot about the order being at the top of the thread (?) that quick. I would cop a plea and claim "a senior moment" but the truth is I am not the brightest bubble light on the Christmas tree to begin with. I am not trying to bash Stuart, it's just that I am surprised that he appears not to have considered that establishing and maintaining contact with Ewell was the highest priority, as opposed to the wagons, etc. I know he tried hard to rectify the situation but was unable. Is it wrong to assume that contact with Ewell is the highest priority in Lee's orders to Stuart?