Off Topic split from How Should the Confederacy be Remembered?

[cash]

I can't help but believe that is the goal, rather than obtaining an accurate view of history. The South remains a useful scapegoat for America's racial sins to this very day.

Silly nonsense.

 

[highplainsdrifter59]

thomas aagaard said: ↑

Well the south really haven't done anything to help improve their image for the last 150+ years.


I disagree with that thought, let's just take Atlanta for an example. The city is so diverse cultured that that city is nowhere a "southern city" anymore. People have come in to live there where you have a total mix of every part of the United States, even the world there now. For many years a black has been a mayor, a city council which is almost all black and demographics from west to east, north and south can be a scattering of every race and creed.

Birmingham, Alabama is a fast growing city that has this happening. Charlotte N.C., is a city to compare to Atlanta. Nashville, TN., it has the same culture there, even being the home of country music.

Yes, the south has grown from the days of "Jim Crow", from the Governors like Lester Maddox of Georgia, the George Wallace of Alabama in the 60's to very early 70's.

It has taken years, decades for the south the go from a rural crop and agriculture section of America to a bustling industrial portion of our Union. The days of see Miss Daisy sipping her mint julip tea in front of the magnolia trees are just a factious as Scarlett O'Hara and Gone with the wind.

 

[WJC]

I have two points.
I do think the south got an image problem.
Because Seen from the outside I do question if things have changed that much culturally. Sure Blacks can sit where they want in a bus but there are still plenty of areas where it looks to me like prejudices are still the same when it come to anything that is not white, christian and straight... (But this is obviously getting into modern politics. and that is really not my goal)

But How much of my idea about the south is actually true and how much is just based how media (even if I do read the fox news and other conservative website from time to time) show the south? Also how often do we get to hear about when good things happen? I live in Denmark, but how much better/worse would my media exposure be if I lived in California or Wisconsin?

Anyway, That image makes is very very easy to just blame the south (and the confederacy) for every bad thing in the US.
And that is not fair at all.

Certainly there is a longstanding image problem brought on by the South itself. Years of slavery, followed by a century of discrimination and intimidation left its mark.
But today's south has outgrown that stereotype. Sadly, the Progressive media (Fox included) makes its living focusing on extremes.
It is worth mentioning that back in the 1970s, some of the worst reactions to racial integration did not occur in the South, but in big, northern cities. For an example, do a search on the integration difficulties in Boston.
Having lived in virtually every section of our country, I can assure you that today there is equal treatment throughout. Do prejudice and bias still exist? Certainly. Maybe they always will at some level. But it's a whole different world than it was even just a few years ago.
For example, virtually every time my wife and I go to our local mall, I see young Black men with young White women or young Black women with young White men. Today's younger generation doesn't think twice about interracial dating. I only notice it because I can recall when it was taboo.
Years ago, along with two friends, I was thrown out of a club because one of my friends- who was Black- had the audacity to ask a white woman to dance with him. And I have vivid memories of the reaction by some to my own interracial marriage.
Don't judge us by our media or self-serving politicians. Look into it for yourself. What often makes the news reports does so because it is rare, which only adds to its interest: people don't want to watch boring normalcy.

 

[libraryguy]

Bravo!

 

[WJC]

Then Southern white politicians should of then and now lead the way and show how eager they are for full racial equality.
Leftyhunter

And they have.
In many ways it has been the big cities of the North that continue to promote racial inequality. What have Black Mayors and Council done for Detroit? All too many Black citizens are nearly as poorly educated, jobless and living in substandard conditions as they were in 1865. The Black middle class, once a model of success for the world to see, has been nearly destroyed.
Black politicians, though, have certainly shown that they are equally as corrupt as their White counterparts....

 

[WJC]

You seemed to have turned my simple observation into another Southern admonition. I could be wrong.

Thanks for your response.
No, just a further discussion of the facts.
There seems to be a long-standing tendency, for example, to concentrate on how instrumental the Emancipation Proclamation was to ending the war.
What is too often overlooked is the effect it had on the Southern soldier, his wife and family. It scared the h##l out of them! It renewed the vigor and commitment of many soldiers who had been ready to 'call it quits' and, in that sense, may even have prolonged the war.

 

[leftyhunter]

And they have.
In many ways it has been the big cities of the North that continue to promote racial inequality. What have Black Mayors and Council done for Detroit? All too many Black citizens are nearly as poorly educated, jobless and living in substandard conditions as they were in 1865. The Black middle class, once a model of success for the world to see, has been nearly destroyed.
Black politicians, though, have certainly shown that they are equally as corrupt as their White counterparts....

Which has nothing to do with my point. I was not trying to compare and contrast white vs black political corruption.
My point is of Southern political leaders from Davis on down the line were for black equality we would not of been having this discussion. There have been some good examples such has LBJ grandson of a Confederate soldier as well as Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Thanks for your response.
No, just a further discussion of the facts.
There seems to be a long-standing tendency, for example, to concentrate on how instrumental the Emancipation Proclamation was to ending the war.
What is too often overlooked is the effect it had on the Southern soldier, his wife and family. It scared the h##l out of them! It renewed the vigor and commitment of many soldiers who had been ready to 'call it quits' and, in that sense, may even have prolonged the war.

Yet every single year Confedrate desertion as well as enlistments in the Union Army increased. Also by 1864 large areas of the South were being overun with Unionist guerrillas. I cover that in my threads " Union vs CSA Guerrillas" and " how serious was desertion in the Confederate Army". Plenty of sources in both threads.
Leftyhunter

 

[Jimklag]

thomas aagaard said: ↑

Well the south really haven't done anything to help improve their image for the last 150+ years.


I disagree with that thought, let's just take Atlanta for an example. The city is so diverse cultured that that city is nowhere a "southern city" anymore. People have come in to live there where you have a total mix of every part of the United States, even the world there now. For many years a black has been a mayor, a city council which is almost all black and demographics from west to east, north and south can be a scattering of every race and creed.

Birmingham, Alabama is a fast growing city that has this happening. Charlotte N.C., is a city to compare to Atlanta. Nashville, TN., it has the same culture there, even being the home of country music.

Yes, the south has grown from the days of "Jim Crow", from the Governors like Lester Maddox of Georgia, the George Wallace of Alabama in the 60's to very early 70's.

It has taken years, decades for the south the go from a rural crop and agriculture section of America to a bustling industrial portion of our Union. The days of see Miss Daisy sipping her mint julip tea in front of the magnolia trees are just a factious as Scarlett O'Hara and Gone with the wind.

At the risk of sounding racist and as a former 20+ year resident, I can tell you that Atlanta's government is mostly, if not all, African American due to the fact that nearly all the white folks fled to the suburbs of North Fulton, Cobb and Gwinett counties. The population of the city of Atlanta is about 750,000 and the metropolitan population is several million. Atlanta's reputation as the city too busy to hate is a myth. When we moved there in the mid sixties Atlanta was still fully segregated with so-called "separate but equal" facilities. Through grade school and high school I didn't have a single African-American classmate. Not until my second year in college did I see an African American in a classroom and he was on one of the athletic teams. The enlightened "new south" is a mirage.

 

[highplainsdrifter59]

At the risk of sounding racist and as a former 20+ year resident, I can tell you that Atlanta's government is mostly, if not all, African American is due to the fact that nearly all the white folks fled to the suburbs of North Fulton, Cobb and Gwinett counties. The population of the city of Atlanta is about 750,000 and the metropolitan population is several million. Atlanta's reputation as the city too busy to hate is a myth. When we moved there in the mid sixties Atlanta was still fully segregated with so-called "separate but equal" facilities. Through grade school and high school I didn't have a single African-American classmate. Not until my second year in college did I see an African American in a classroom and he was on one of the athletic teams. The enlightened "new south" is a mirage.

Being born and raised for well over 45 years in and around the city of Atlanta, I have seen the change. Has it been easy or quick? No, but it has changed from the 60's to 70's. I have seen parts of Atlanta go from great neighborhoods to not so great,to now a rebuilding of those areas being good again. As with any large city in the 70's, people with better transportation highways could move out to the suburbs, our family did in 1970 from Atlanta. We moved into a more country atmosphere type living. We moved to get away from the ever growing city. We moved because it afforded us better housing. We didn't move because of African Americans moving next door or in our school system.
Tell me any big city in America, north or south and I'm sure I or you can see the same type mass movement toward the suburbs during this time. Do not place the blame on just the south in doing this, it was and still to some extent happening today.
Atlanta is a multi racial city and I will even go as far as one of the better ones even today. Look at some big cities in the north, Chicago, Detriot, Cleveland, even New York, are they better than Atlanta today? Again don't cast stones at Atlanta for being a city in the midst of the Confederacy, I think that city has risen from the ashes of that war and now can be proud of where it is today. It still has much to gain from its crime rate and lower income situations but I still think it's better than many big cities in the north.
Why has Atlanta grew so big and fast, simple reason is people like living in and around that city. People of many different sects find they can enjoy a city worth calling home.

 

[highplainsdrifter59]

...and to add, I did live in the suburbs and we had African Americans in High School and not just athletes but very good students that were leaders in our classes. I went to Georgia State and Georgia Tech and we had plenty of African Americans in those schools. We has students from all over the world where I went to college and these schools were right in the middle of Atlanta.
I don't know where you went to collage but is sure wasn't either one of those schools.

 

[Jimklag]

...and to add, I did live in the suburbs and we had African Americans in High School and not just athletes but very good students that were leaders in our classes. I went to Georgia State and Georgia Tech and we had plenty of African Americans in those schools. We has students from all over the world where I went to college and these schools were right in the middle of Atlanta.
I don't know where you went to collage but is sure wasn't either one of those schools.

Georgia Tech didn't even allow coeds until my sophomore year. When I started there in the fall of 1968 it was lily white and all male.

 

[highplainsdrifter59]

Then just look at the progress Georgia Tech had had from 1968 to 1981 when I was there. Yet again another reason to see Atlanta had done a very good job of making itself a city to be proud of.

 

[WJC]

Which has nothing to do with my point. I was not trying to compare and contrast white vs black political corruption.

Thanks for your response.
You may want to read my response again. Perhaps you missed the first sentence in my comment act where I responded directly to your statement, "Then Southern white politicians should... lead the way and show how eager they are for full racial equality.
I answered, "And they have."
Only then did I contrast the Southern efforts to promote racial equality with the unfortunate and often retrogressive efforts in some of our northern cities.

 

[WJC]

Yet every single year Confedrate desertion as well as enlistments in the Union Army increased. Also by 1864 large areas of the South were being overun with Unionist guerrillas. I cover that in my threads " Union vs CSA Guerrillas" and " how serious was desertion in the Confederate Army". Plenty of sources in both threads.
Leftyhunter

Thanks for your response.
Neither set of facts excludes the other.

 

[uaskme]

There seems to be a few here that thinks the South still has Slavery. Not much has changed in 150 years? It is nonsensical to even respond to such an uninformed point of view. If a poster has this view as a Data Point it also calls into question his other views.

 

[libraryguy]

Thanks for your response.
Only then did I contrast the Southern efforts to promote racial equality with the unfortunate and often retrogressive efforts in some of our northern cities.

The North was INCREDIBLY racist, who are they kidding. My grandfather and mom were awful too, the stuff they said. It did not get close to racial equality until the later 70's in NW PA>

 

[RobertP]

↑


Birmingham, Alabama is a fast growing city that has this happening. Charlotte N.C., is a city to compare to Atlanta. Nashville, TN., it has the same culture there, even being the home of country music.

Can't agree with you on Birmingham. At one time the city was on par with Atlanta and there was competition between them for a big new airport with the Delta home base. Atlanta won and the rest is history. B'ham these days is a corrupt, dangerous pit surrounded by white suburbs. There is competition among it, Jackson, Miss., Memphis and New Orleans to see who wins the title of the next Detroit.

 

[highplainsdrifter59]

I won't be caught in Memphis or O'leans when the sun goes down, you may never the sunrise.

 

[Henry Brown]

Birmingham, Alabama is a fast growing city that has this happening.

a good read for the history of jefferson county (birmingham) al during antebellum , war, and reconstruction is " William Jemison Mims , Soldier & Squire " by Glover Moore (a relative of mims and a southerner).