Grant Not impressed with Grants performance

[Rebforever]

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Agreed. Most of the soldiers fought because they felt it was their duty to do so. Glad to hear we have some common ground.

[ quote]A lot of the soldiers were resentful and deserted throughout the conflict because they didn't want to be fighting a rich man's war.[/QUOTE]

Do you have a source for those desertions? Or not? How many did this behavior?

 

[Rebforever]

" Desertion at the South, though less extensive than in the North, was a factor of large significance; and a study of the causes that produced it goes far toward revealing the conditions which made the war intolerable to thousands among people and soldiers. As explained by Miss Loun, back-woodsmen and crackers were drawn into the army who had no sympathy with slavery and no interest in the issues of a struggle which they did not understand. The conscript net gathered in even Northerners and Mexicans, whose tendency to desert was natural enough. Many of the deserters were mere boys. Poor food and clothing, lack of shoes and overcoats, and insufficient pay inevitably produced disaffection. Sometimes the pay was fourteen months behind; often a soldier on leave could not pay the transportation to return to his command. Unsanitary camp conditions had their debilitating effect. Soldiers kept in unwholesome inaction were more than commonly subject to homesickness and depression. Often the alternative was abandonment and neglect of wife and children or departure from the army - in other words a choice between two kinds of desertion, a dilemma in facing conflicting loyalties. Men felt that their services were actually more needed at home than in the army. Not a few Southern soldiers found themselves in the situation of an Alabaman who deserted the army when his wife wrote him: "We haven't got nothing in the house to eat but a little bit of meal. . . . I don't want you to stop fighting them Yankees . .but try and get off and come home and fix us all up some and then you can go back." Some Arkansas soldiers deserted when informed that Indians were on a scalping tour near their homes. Indignant at extortioners and profiteers, soldiers would become disgruntled at the "rich mans war and the poor mans fight." There were occasions when "whole companies, garrisons, and even regiments decamped at a time." In some cases deserters banded together, roamed the country, fortified themselves in the mountains, and made raids upon settlements, stealing cattle and robbing military stores. Some lived in caves. Forces had to he detached from the Confederate armies to run down such groups, whose retreats were inaccessible and whose courage in fighting off attack was formidable. Had it not been for Mosbys Rangers, as Miss Lonn had pointed out, many defenseless residents in Virginias debatable land between the shifting armies "would have been at the mercy of the roving hands of deserters, turned bushwhackers, who had been left in the wake of both armies At critical times in the war the extent of desertion prevented the South from following up victories or half-victories in the field; it was both the cause and effect of lowered morale; the amount was "appalling, incredible." Many who withdrew from the army "had little conception of the gravity of their offense." For such men desertion bore no stigma; and, in sum, it appears that this factor (which, after all, was but a reflection of many other factors) "contributed definitely to the Confederate defeats after 1862 and . . . [to] the catastrophe of 1865." ------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, you are right. However, there still is no mention of how many there were for a solid percentage.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/desertion.html

 

[OpnCoronet]

They fought for independence in order to keep and spread slavery. Doesn't that sound odd?
You are right, most of the Confederate soldiers fought for home, family, and country but the Confederate leaders and the planter elite fought to keep slavery. A lot of the soldiers were resentful and deserted throughout the conflict because they didn't want to be fighting a rich man's war.

Very true, But, in fact also, the south(confederacy) in which their families and homes resided, included the institution of chattle slavery.

The social grouping of home, family, country, etc.,was based on slavery as the very cornerstone of that social grouping's existence, i.e., slavery was not, simply and abstract point, separate, distinct and apart, from the very fabric of the southern way of life. Slavery was the very point, that made the south separate and distinct from the rest of the Union and, IMO, was clearly understood as such, by all thinking confederates. Even if they did not have the confederate Constitution to compare with that of the United States.

 

[Captain Davis]

might have been worth consideration before starting the bloody mess, wouldn't it? was a certain jeff davies not minister of war and should have known about stuff like that?

In Davis's defense, he along with all of the Confederate brass knew the south couldn't win a long drawn out war. They were hoping that Lincoln and the Northern people would grow tired of losing their men and come to a truce.

However, once it got going, what could Davis do? He committed to a cause and saw it through. I can't blame him for that.

At the same time, I have to give Lincoln credit. He stayed the course and ultimately reached his goal of keeping the Union together.

 

[Captain Davis]

They fought for independence in order to keep and spread slavery. Doesn't that sound odd?
You are right, most of the Confederate soldiers fought for home, family, and country but the Confederate leaders and the planter elite fought to keep slavery. A lot of the soldiers were resentful and deserted throughout the conflict because they didn't want to be fighting a rich man's war.

What I can't stand is that Northerners get on their high horse about slavery as if it were a moral issue.

If it was a moral issue, Lincoln would have never agreed to keep it where it was already legal.

A little research confirms that yes, slavery was the issue. But, it was an economic issue, it a moral one.

No one really gave a rip about the slaves. Not enough to actually pick up a rifle and fight over it.

So spare me with all the moral elitism.

 

[Bee]

t

What I can't stand is that Northerners get on their high horse about slavery as if it were a moral issue.

If it was a moral issue, Lincoln would have never agreed to keep it where it was already legal.

A little research confirms that yes, slavery was the issue. But, it was an economic issue, it a moral one.

No one really gave a rip about the slaves. Not enough to actually pick up a rifle and fight over it.

So spare me with all the moral elitism.

A few quotations regarding slavery, by Lincoln:

I have always hated slavery, I think as much as any Abolitionist.
--July 10, 1858 Speech at Chicago

Now I confess myself as belonging to that class in the country who contemplate slavery as a moral, social and political evil.
--October 7, 1858 Debate at Galesburg, Illinois

That is the real issue. That is the issue that will continue in this country when these poor tongues of Judge Douglas and myself shall be silent. It is the eternal struggle between these two principles -- right and wrong -- throughout the world. They are the two principles that have stood face to face from the beginning of time, and will ever continue to struggle. The one is the common right of humanity and the other the divine right of kings. It is the same principle in whatever shape it develops itself. It is the same spirit that says, "You work and toil and earn bread, and I'll eat it." No matter in what shape it comes, whether from the mouth of a king who seeks to bestride the people of his own nation and live by the fruit of their labor, or from one race of men as an apology for enslaving another race, it is the same tyrannical principle.
-- October 15, 1858 Debate at Alton, Illinois

Now what is Judge Douglas' Popular Sovereignty? It is, as a principle, no other than that, if one man chooses to make a slave of another man, neither that other man nor anybody else has a right to object.
--September 16, 1859 Speech in Columbus, Ohio

We know, Southern men declare that their slaves are better off than hired laborers amongst us. How little they know, whereof they speak! There is no permanent class of hired laborers amongst us ... Free labor has the inspiration of hope; pure slavery has no hope.
--ca. September 17, 1859 Fragment on Free Labor

You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; while we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted. That I suppose is the rub. It certainly is the only substantial difference between us.
--December 22, 1860 Letter to Alexander Stephens
​

I believe that Lincoln's own words reflect his personal confliction about slavery, however, he had to uphold the law.

 

[Reb]

I believe that Lincoln's own words reflect his personal confliction about slavery

There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas ...

In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and in their places be, pari passu [on an equal basis], filled up by free white laborers."

I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.

I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

 

[wausaubob]

Grant was a Douglas Democrat who did not believe in the house divided rhetoric.
He became a military abolitionist, because that was the civilian governments policy.
Then he became acquainted with black soldiers.
Subsequently, whether by cause and affect, he became the first civil rights president and the only one until Truman and Eisenhower.
Slavery was not reinstituted and Congress gave the blacks the right to vote, though they couldn't protect that vote.
If you think blacks should have the same right to vote as anyone else, you are probably impressed by Grant's performance.
If you black people should not be allowed to vote, you probably can find a lot to criticize about Grant. Of course in 1890's those critics were Democrats. Now, blacks tend to vote Democratic and its Republicans who are not impressed with Grant, generally speaking.

 

[wausaubob]

Maybe take the Lincoln stuff elsewhere.

 

[Captain Davis]

t

A few quotations regarding slavery, by Lincoln:

I have always hated slavery, I think as much as any Abolitionist.
--July 10, 1858 Speech at Chicago

Now I confess myself as belonging to that class in the country who contemplate slavery as a moral, social and political evil.
--October 7, 1858 Debate at Galesburg, Illinois

That is the real issue. That is the issue that will continue in this country when these poor tongues of Judge Douglas and myself shall be silent. It is the eternal struggle between these two principles -- right and wrong -- throughout the world. They are the two principles that have stood face to face from the beginning of time, and will ever continue to struggle. The one is the common right of humanity and the other the divine right of kings. It is the same principle in whatever shape it develops itself. It is the same spirit that says, "You work and toil and earn bread, and I'll eat it." No matter in what shape it comes, whether from the mouth of a king who seeks to bestride the people of his own nation and live by the fruit of their labor, or from one race of men as an apology for enslaving another race, it is the same tyrannical principle.
-- October 15, 1858 Debate at Alton, Illinois

Now what is Judge Douglas' Popular Sovereignty? It is, as a principle, no other than that, if one man chooses to make a slave of another man, neither that other man nor anybody else has a right to object.
--September 16, 1859 Speech in Columbus, Ohio

We know, Southern men declare that their slaves are better off than hired laborers amongst us. How little they know, whereof they speak! There is no permanent class of hired laborers amongst us ... Free labor has the inspiration of hope; pure slavery has no hope.
--ca. September 17, 1859 Fragment on Free Labor

You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; while we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted. That I suppose is the rub. It certainly is the only substantial difference between us.
--December 22, 1860 Letter to Alexander Stephens
​

I believe that Lincoln's own words reflect his personal confliction about slavery, however, he had to uphold the law.

Here are more of his quotes:

I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.

I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery."

In his 1858 debate with Sen. Steven Douglas, Lincoln maintained, "And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

while debating Douglas in 1858, Lincoln declared the following: "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races."

"I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes."

When addressing the Dred Scott Decision of 1857, Lincoln quoted the following: "There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races … A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas…"

Indeed, his own words do reflect his views.

 

[Captain Davis]

Grant was a Douglas Democrat who did not believe in the house divided rhetoric.
He became a military abolitionist, because that was the civilian governments policy.
Then he became acquainted with black soldiers.
Subsequently, whether by cause and affect, he became the first civil rights president and the only one until Truman and Eisenhower.
Slavery was not reinstituted and Congress gave the blacks the right to vote, though they couldn't protect that vote.
If you think blacks should have the same right to vote as anyone else, you are probably impressed by Grant's performance.
If you black people should not be allowed to vote, you probably can find a lot to criticize about Grant. Of course in 1890's those critics were Democrats. Now, blacks tend to vote Democratic and its Republicans who are not impressed with Grant, generally speaking.

My problem with Grant had nothing to do with his personal views.

He just did what he easily should have done given all of his advantages.

 

[wausaubob]

And people changed their views, significantly. 620,000 deaths and the participation of 200,000 black sailors and soldiers might have caused that.
Or maybe Lincoln did not really change his views, but after the Emancipation he never again spoke about colonization.

 

[Bee]

Indeed, his own words do reflect his views

We can play this game all day of contrasting quotes. It is all about timeline. Quotes made at a later date reflect the most currents attitudes/opinions. It is common knowledge that Lincoln's attitude towards slavery changed over time.

I will respect that this IS a Grant thread an leave it at that.

 

[Reb]

We can play this game all day of contrasting quotes. It is all about timeline. Quotes made at a later date reflect the most currents attitudes/opinions. It is common knowledge that Lincoln's attitude towards slavery changed over time.

I will respect that this IS a Grant thread an leave it at that.

Yes, we can play this game all day. All it proves is Lincoln was a politician and would say anything for political advantage. You can keep trying to put his halo on, but it always falls off if you read enough about the man.

 

[Bee]

Yes, we can play this game all day. All it proves is Lincoln was a politician and would say anything for political advantage. You can keep trying to put his halo on, but it always falls off if you read enough about the man.

A flawed human being just like everyone else -- no halo.

 

[Mike Griffith]

Very true, But, in fact also, the south(confederacy) in which their families and homes resided, included the institution of chattle slavery.

The Union included the institution of slavery as well. In fact, the Union added a slave state during the war (WV). The Union's most powerful general, Ulysses Grant, used slave labor. One of the Union's very best generals, George Thomas, was a slaveholder.

The social grouping of home, family, country, etc.,was based on slavery as the very cornerstone of that social grouping's existence, i.e., slavery was not, simply and abstract point, separate, distinct and apart, from the very fabric of the southern way of life. Slavery was the very point, that made the south separate and distinct from the rest of the Union and, IMO, was clearly understood as such, by all thinking confederates. Even if they did not have the confederate Constitution to compare with that of the United States.

Well, actually, the Confederate Constitution allowed for the admission of free states to the Confederacy, banned the overseas slave trade, and permitted Confederate states to abolish slavery if they so desired (it merely prohibited the national government from doing so). And perhaps it should also be mentioned that only about 10% of Southern citizens owned slaves and only 33% of Southern families included slaveholders. Additionally, there were nearly as many free blacks living in the South as there were in the North.

And on top of these facts, there is also the fact that four of the 11 Confederate states strongly rejected secession when it was based on slavery and the tariff; they seceded over coercion, not slavery. Indeed, many scholars have documented that Union sentiment was strong enough in the Upper South that those states would have stayed in the Union if Lincoln had simply evacuated Pickens and Sumter and had refrained from coercion against the Deep South.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

This is exactly the kind of thread I hate to see on this website-- where people treat a huge national tragedy like they're soccer hooligans brawling over a match. Go team, go!

 

[DanSBHawk]

From store clerk to Lieutenant General in 4 years, and then to the White House in another 4 years.

By any reasonable standard, Grant's performance was impressive. Especially compared to all the officers more highly-regarded at the start of the war, on both sides, whose subsequent performances were failure and defeat.

 

[Aussie Billy Sherman]

This thread is about Grant. Let's get back on topic rather than rehash the usual war was about slavery back and forths

 

[Irishtom29]

Grant wrapped up the war on the western line, then put the middle line on solid footing and then directed wrapping up the war on the eastern line. I don't know more that he should've done.