Need Shotgun Verification Help

[Headspace12]

So, to give a quick background of my story, I got married Saturday! While the women were doing all their hair and makeup my father, brother, and myself wandered around the coast of NC going to antique shops and flea markets and garage sales and the like. We've always been a bunch of antique'ers and self proclaimed scavengers, so for us - it was a good time.

While in a 'higher end" (we'll call it that because things were EXPENSIVE) we started reallllllly digging around. Out of a, literally, dark, dusty corner, essentially behind a counter and away from customer traffic I found a muzzle loader shotgun. I picked it up, and as the saying goes "knew just enough to be dangerous". So with one a few minutes left before we had to start heading back to put our suits on I still hadnt decided exactly what it is so I bascially said "&$#@ it. This is my special day, and I'm bringing this thing with me." and for 500 bucks - out the door it went.

I know (think) its a William Chance made gun that was imported to Norfolk VA. At least, thats what it says...

Here's where I'm at: This thing is marked 1862, and sports a "CSA" mark. Is it real? Is it fake?

PROS:

The Date fits: American Civil War was obviously 1861-1865 - so 1862 fits.
The Circumstances: Its early-ish in the war, and the confederacy did push a lot of "sporting" arms into service. They also had much more of a love for shotguns than the Union did and shotguns were imported from overseas by the confederacy.
The Condition: This poor thing has been BEAT. Having dealt with Mosins for years, I know that sometimes they are SUPPOSED to be in tough shape. I cannot imagine even a cheap (I'm presuming this was) shotgun being used to THIS extent. Forget about being safe to fire now, I am wondering if it was safe to fire THEN! lol
The Stamp: I've dealt with Forged Mosins - I own one and have held many. The "CSA" and "1862" stamps arent new. If they are from THAT time for not, I dont know, but they weren't added recently...
The Ramrod: Has been broken and poorly glued back together, I dont know if it is even original or a very old replacement - again suggesting a lot of abuse I wouldnt expect from duck hunting. LOL I would almost think of it as "field made". I own some "trench art" guns and sort of get the same vibe off of this piece.
Google has turned up record of "collections" of sporting arms from the civilian populations so that dragnet really could've pulled in anything...
It still works: Hammer, Trigger, Half cock, ramrod comes out, all that. Its not like it was frozen and hanging on someone else's wall.
The gun was found by me in the Outer banks of NC. I have found 2nd hand accounts noting that confederate defenders in the area were poorly equipped and armed (notably with shotguns), with many encouraged to bring their own sporting guns due to a lack of military equipment. I am still looking for primary sources on that information.... so I've have been taking that with a grain of salt.

The CONS:
Confederate stuff has a million forgeries... Anybody could've found an old shotgun and thought "HA! With a few stamps I can charge 500% more!!"
It's not a double barrel: Most of what Google showed me for "Confederate Shotguns" were all imported double barrels...
Length: I would expect it to be shorter?
The stamping: Confederate stuff appears to have been marked more "CS" than "CSA" (though evidently some stuff was "CSA" marked?)

The wildcard:
Confederate logistics appear to have been a nightmare... will anyone ever really know what was marked what?

The Weird:
It has a brass plaque / button that seemingly has a "B" on it. Maybe this wasn't just a cheap shotgun and was actually a fine hunting gun?

I figure at the end of the day, I have a pretty cool, old, wall hanger for my "armory" from a very special day, - so I dont feel like I was taken advantage of regardless, but boy wouldn't it be cool if it was legit? lol

Let me know your thoughts, and I am happy to post more pictures, or try to take stuff apart.

Thanks,

Headspace

 

[johan_steele]

The CSA is spurious as is the date. The font is wrong. Originally it was a mid range cost shotgun.

But it's yours from a special day so it's all good.

 

[scooter748driver]

Neat old shotgun! I too question the CSA and date stamp. This book might help you get some better info on it:

Also, welcome from the Fort Sumter and the Fredericksburg forums, and congrats on your wedding!

 

[rebracer]

Congratulations on getting married. As others have said the "CSA" and date stamps are not period correct and this should be fairly obvious after you have seen enough other similar markings, adding the "A" is usually a give away on this. However with all of that being said, what you have is still a neat gun with some interesting embellishments. I would be interested to hear once you find out exactly what it is. The bolster looks interesting to me as well its hard to tell from the photos, but does it look like this is a conversion (drum bolster)?

Can you tell us what is engraved on the lock plate? Edit: I missed where you said 'William Chance".

What would be interesting is if you really did have an authentic CW used arm that someone "marked" to make appear more authentic.

 

[Mike Serpa]

Congratulations!

 

[Headspace12]

Thanks everyone!

Ok, that makes sense about the A. I'm not heartbroken its not legitimate, its a neat piece anyway and solving mysteries with interesting folks like you all is always fun.

rebracer, it would be really interesting if it was real but labeled after the fact... do you know of any ways to tell? or are we just gonna slide off into the deep speculation and daydreaming side of the pool together? hahaha

I googled "bolster" to try to get more information about exactly what that part is, and I think I know what you're talking about (the thing the primer sits on?) so I will take more pictures and post them up tomorrow. I assume you mean its a possible conversion from a flintlock? I was told the hammer damage was caused by "overtravel".

I also read that signs of military use would be things like slings being added (dont have those) Bayonet Lugs (nope) or engravings (other than that "B" in the wrist, not really), and the nipple being converted over from whatever, to a more "military common" type? Is the nipple thing internet garble? Is there something I can put calipers on and measure?

I'm gonna attempt to unscrew the buttplate tonight to see if there is something under there - unless one of you yells at me to stop in the next hour and half....



*edited for obscene spelling errors...

 

[rebracer]

No, dont be afraid to disassemble an antique arm if you have some knowledge of tools and firearms. Just make sure you go slow and use the correct size turnscrew so you dont slip of and damage the screw/bolt head. If you think this will be a new hobby for you then I would highly suggest purchasing an original M1842 tool, I use my original on every antique and black powder fire arm I have it fits better than any screwdriver.

Once you have it apart gently clean it and lubricate it before you put it back together.

Yes the bolster is the part of the barrel where the nipple/cone screws into. A conversion is when they converted a flintlock to a percussion arm. This was sometimes done with what is called a drum bolster as it looks like a cylinder screwed (or braised) onto the side of the barrel. Im no expert on shotguns so Im not sure how common this was, but one of your photos looked like a drum bolster to me.

As to the CSA and date, I can just tell its not 1860s. If you look at examples (photos) of period stamping of barrels and other components and it will become clear to you how authentic markings look. In my opinion it can be stated as a rule most confederate arms will not have any CS or CSA markings on them (Spiller and Burr revolver being an example of an exception). Most confederate items are identified by state specific markings as well as inspector or viewer markings. I know this sounds confusing/complicated but again if you intend to really get involved with antique arms, spend the time and money to get the right books for reference because even online sources can be lacking.

Still, even if its not Confederate or Civil War a neat old gun is still a neat old gun and I cant think of a better way to spend $500.

 

[OldSarge79]

@Headspace12 , you sound like a great guy with a good sense of humor and a lot of courage. Who else among us would be brave enough to buy an antique shotgun on the way to their wedding? "Hi honey, sorry I'm late. Let me just find a place to put my shotgun before we get started."
Sorry, I couldn't resist
Anyway, welcome to CivilWarTalk. I think we will all enjoy hearing from you more.

 

[JoeCollector]

@Headspace12 , you sound like a great guy with a good sense of humor and a lot of courage. Who else among us would be brave enough to buy an antique shotgun on the way to their wedding? "Hi honey, sorry I'm late. Let me just find a place to put my shotgun before we get started."
Sorry, I couldn't resist
Anyway, welcome to CivilWarTalk. I think we will all enjoy hearing from you more.

I agree with OldSarge , break her in early!

 

[Tanglewood]

Congratulations on your wedding!
This cool old shotgun was originally percussion as you found it, it is not a conversion from flintlock. There is no evidence (screw holes,empty spaces) that it ever had the pan, frizzen, spring, etc, and that would be problematic with back action locks. I don't recall ever seeing a back action flintlock, but who knows, they may be out there. Most interesting is to find out all you can about W. Chance. The spurious date and CSA can be remedied, if you ever so desire, with a small bit of delicate welding, then filing and browning, which is no big job.

 

[Headspace12]

@Headspace12 , you sound like a great guy with a good sense of humor and a lot of courage. Who else among us would be brave enough to buy an antique shotgun on the way to their wedding? "Hi honey, sorry I'm late. Let me just find a place to put my shotgun before we get started."
Sorry, I couldn't resist
Anyway, welcome to CivilWarTalk. I think we will all enjoy hearing from you more.

I... uhh.... might have.... also zipped it up in my suit bag so I could nonchalantly get it into our hotel room and start researching it while she was asleep....


She's a pretty patient woman - I can definitely say that.

 

[Headspace12]

SOOOOOOO I pulled the butt plate off without damaging anything, but didnt find anything noteworthy underneath. I'm going to focus my efforts on discovering the importer now - it looks like it says "E P T D B .B". Perhaps thats an abbreviation for something. I think the "Norkfolk VA" is going to be critical is narrowing down what that means.

I found this on another forum, as well as a few W. Chance for sale listings:
"William Chance, a merchant of Birmingham England 1777-1780 became Chance & Homer, then William Chance & Sons 1812-1821. He sold guns marked London. William Chance the 2nd, son of William, 2 Coleman Street Bldgs. London 1829-1842 became William Chance Son & Co. 1842-1856; then William Chance & Co. 1858."

Its hard to tell with the patina, but does anybody want to take a stab at a date of manufacture assuming that information?

Another question I have for you all, is the front escutcheon. I would think that would be for a sling, but there is no rear mount, and there appears to be a piece of brass jammed inside. Is this for some sort of fancy sling deal? Perhaps a mounting of sorts thats long been broken?

As far as the 1862 and CSA, I do know a phenomenally talented welder (he can weld a magazine well to a Kalashnikov pattern without damaging a 1.0mm receiver - We've done it a few times) but I dont know if welding on this is the route I want to take. I think I will just note in my book that the marks are fake and when I drop dead the Mrs. can sell for what it really is, regardless of what it says.

 

[MWood1841]

cool old gun and great conversation piece. Remember to write down somewhere how you got it and the history known. I recently started cataloging my old guns in a personal ledger that will stay in my gun safe. I will eventually not be around anymore one day, although I hope to have grandchildren in the near future and share stories and history with them. I've unfortunately recently been the recipient of inherited firearms from both my grandfather and father. I know the history by some of them, but not all of them and alot of older guns with questions that will never be answered on their history, how my granddaddy or pops got them or who they were passed down by. So I'm taking the time now to record my guns and known history from each. Perhaps one day I'll have grandsons or granddaughters they will be passed down to and continue the generational pass down and known history.
Great old gun you got there and thanks for sharing with us. God Bless and Best Regards to you and your wife.

 

[rebracer]

Now I can clearly see the bolster and breech design on this.

Are those lines on the breech painted on?

Your doing the right thing, just clean and oil it before it goes back together. Linseed oil on the wood. I would just leave the CSA alone for now and chalk it up to part of the guns personal story.

As sated above write down how/when you got it so your grandchildren will know the full story!

 

[Old Soldier]

Date of manufacture. Given that style, engraving and the breech decoration, around 1800 to 1840 but likely nearer 1820. The breech decoration is usually inlaid silver or white brass. The trap was probably for caps. Are there any proofs on the barrel? These should be on the left upper side of the breech, but may be underneath. If there are none, it suggests it was made prior to proofing which started in 1813 in GB.

 

[OldSarge79]

I would lean more toward the 1840 mark. The key holding the barrel on didn't appear on British military longarms until the end of the 1830's. But I'm not sure if the military or the civilian market was using them first.

 

[Old Soldier]

This is no military arm, but a civilian shotgun. There are plenty still around in the UK. The military were rather slow in adopting new practices, especially ones that cost more to make! This flat key/wedge was in use by 1800 in the civilian market, especially with the brass surround, on pistol and longarms, but did not appear until the new designs of military weapons around 1830-40, noteably without the brass surround. I suspect the first model Brunswick was among the first. Why? Too busy converting the old surplus flintlock weapons to percussion.

This is a Manton made in the early 1800s.