Navy from the South?

[MikeyB]

If they were so hesitant to run the guns of Vicksburg, why couldn't the Union move transport ships from the South to get Grant across? Union held New Orleans and I thought Vicksburg (and Port Hudson) were the only obstructions to controlling the entire Mississippi River. So what was stopping them from sending ships or one troop ship from the Gulf, past Nola and into Vicksburg?

 

[Reconstructed Rebel]

Water depth in some parts of the river?

 

[JohnG0609]

Nothing at all. Except different departments with different objectives.

 

[MikeyB]

Nothing at all. Except different departments with different objectives.

wow, really?

That is absolutely insane bureaucracy/strategic incompetence. All of those wasted months/manpower/malaria deaths building canals and such when they could have moved ships from the gulf?

 

[JohnG0609]

wow, really?

That is absolutely insane bureaucracy/strategic incompetence. All of those wasted months/manpower/malaria deaths building canals and such when they could have moved ships from the gulf?

Yep, really.

USS Hartford and USS Albatross ran past Port Hudson on March 14, moved up to below Vicksburg until about March 21, USS Switzerland ran past Vicksburg batteries and joined them, then all three went south and blockaded mouth of the Red River. The whole time these three ships were between Port Hudson and Vicksburg.

 

[MikeyB]

Yep, really.

USS Hartford and USS Albatross ran past Port Hudson on March 14, moved up to below Vicksburg until about March 21, USS Switzerland ran past Vicksburg batteries and joined them, then all three went south and blockaded mouth of the Red River. The whole time these three ships were between Port Hudson and Vicksburg.

were these wooden or ironclad ships?

I have no doubt to what you're saying about bureacratic mismanagement, but maybe there was also a fear that transport ships would not be able to run Port Hudson?

 

[jackt62]

Was this idea ever even seriously considered. I have never read anything anywhere about this concerning the Vicksburg campaign.

 

[JohnG0609]

I have no doubt to what you're saying about bureacratic mismanagement, but maybe there was also a fear that transport ships would not be able to run Port Hudson?

Hartford and Albatross were Western Blocking Squadron so wooden seagoing ships. Switzerland was Mississippi Squadron, but was a wooden ram, not an ironclad.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Here is the reality check. City Class ironclad gunboats had a top speed of 5 knots. The current of the Mississippi River is (+/-) 3 knots.

To cruise up river a City Class gunboat burned a ton of coal / hour. A barge of coal was lashed onto one or both sides. The entire crew, including officers, were engaged in transferring 100 pound bags / baskets of coal. Care had to be taken to maintain the balance of both barge & vessel.

A tugboat would be towing from the bow. With the stokers, water tenders & black gang tending the three boilers the gunboat's wheels thrashing up a froth, two maybe three knots could be made relative to the river bank.

By way of perspective, a small girl peddling full tilt on a tricycle can make two knots.

As at Vicksburg, returning back up river under fire of the batteries was not possible.

Another aspect is that the bounty of Mississippi Valley flows downstream to New Orleans. Hay, hogs, corn, bacon, sausages, equine remounts all flowed downstream from Cincinnati. Pemberton's supplies came by rail from Georgia. Months before Grant crossed the river Pemberton reported that he was cut off from the Trans-Mississippi.

You could argue that Western logistics were powered by gravity.

 

[MikeyB]

Here is the reality check. City Class got boats had a top speed of 5 knots. The current of the Mississippi River is (+/-) 3 knots.

To cruise up river a City Class gunboat burned a ton of coal / hour. A barge of coal was lashed onto one or both sides. The entire crew, including officers, were engaged with n transferring 100 pound bags / baskets CV of coal.

A tugboat would be towing from the bow. With the stokers, water tenders & black gang tending the three boilers the gunboat's wheels thrashing up a froth, two maybe three knots could be made relative to the river bank.

By way of perspective, a small girl peddling full tilt can make two knots.

As at Vicksburg, returning back up river under fire of the batteries was not possible.

Another aspect is that the bounty of Mississippi Valley flows downstream to New Orleans. Blessings flowed downstream from Cincinnati. Pemberton's supplies came by rail from Georgia. Months before Grant crossed the river Pemberton reported that he was cut off from supplies from the Trans-Mississippi,

You could argue that the Westrrn war was powered by gravity.

This is very interesting

 

[Rhea Cole]

This is very interesting

MikeyB, thankx.

My folks lived a few blocks from the Mississippi River in Iowa. The towboats coming downstream sounded very different from those moving against the current. That despite the tows heading back often had empty grain barges standing high above the surface.

Watching the tows enter the lock with inches to spare, break the tow for the lock gates & after passing reconnect the tow is really something to watch. That much horsepower coupled with that much mass in a delicate choreography is never boring. The hand on the bow of the lead barge as it approaches the lock gate gives positions in inches to the pilot almost a mile away up in the pilot house.

I recommend the roof of the Peabody Hotel during Sunday brunch for observing enormous barge tows "In The River" as it is called below Cairo, Illinois.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Everyone contributing to this thread should order this book. Neil Chatelain has written a history of the war in the Mississippi Valley from the Confederate perspective. As far as I know, it is unique. Chatelain has carved out a place for himself amongst Civil War historians.

His career as a surface warfare officer provides him with a perspective that other writers do not have. His body of research has provided him with unique level of detailed knowledge. I learn something on just about every paragraph of his books.

The why didn't they do this or that questions like the one at the head of this thread are answered in great detail by Chatelain's books. I encourage everyone to support the publisher Savas Beaty, as well. They are doing an excellent job issuing books that are of great interest to those of us who study the complexities of how the war was fought.

If you want to not just have the facts, but understand how & why events during the war in the Mississippi Valley took place, 'Defending the Arteries of the Rebellion' will be a revelation.

 

[tony_gunter]

If they were so hesitant to run the guns of Vicksburg, why couldn't the Union move transport ships from the South to get Grant across? Union held New Orleans and I thought Vicksburg (and Port Hudson) were the only obstructions to controlling the entire Mississippi River. So what was stopping them from sending ships or one troop ship from the Gulf, past Nola and into Vicksburg?

Port Hudson was stopping them. Much more difficult to run boats past batteries going upstream than down.

 

[gary]

Port Hudson was stopping them. Much more difficult to run boats past batteries going upstream than down.

This was the response I was going to post.

Ever visit an old fort or castle? Two gates, an inner and an outer. The space in between is known as a sallyport. It acts as a "safety" to prevent the enemy from gaining entry if you opened the gates for your messengers or raiding party trying to get out. It's also a kill zone for any enemy who penetrates the outer gate. Vicksburg and Port Hudson acted as sally ports. Possession of both were needed by the Confederates to ensure supplies arrived from the Red River region. Possession of only one was needed to deny the Union full access to the Mississippi.

Today the concept is used in some jails/prisons, buildings (for climate control), kiddy nurseries, banks or even dogparks.