Nathan Bedford Forest

[RedRover]

Semi-off topic question for anyone here.
I understand that slaves were valuable "property" and could cost thousands of dollars.

N.B. Forrest himself was a large-scale slave trader before the war. He purchased slaves, principally from the eastern and border States, and provided a market for their distribution throughout the Southwest. As you mention, slaves were expensive. Forrest was one of the wealthiest fellows in his district.

Wouldn't it have been cheaper to hire locals to work for a few dollars a day? It was back-breaking work of course but any outside work was difficult back in the old days.

In the rural districts, there were very few people on hand to hire, even if cash were handy. And most of them were farmers rather busy with their own toils.


And the planters didn't necessarily have cash on hand to pay day labor. The game afoot was often based upon financing their operations through banks and credit, and slave labor was useful to that end.

The way the system worked generally, once a planter had in hand some land, and procured a certain number of slaves (often purchased with mortgages as with the land), there were "factors" who would then advance to them credit based on a calculation of future yield in cotton bales, based on their land and slave holdings. The credit was generally employed as advances to purchase manufactured goods in the North, etc.

And where the wealth increased, the inclination was to increase the land and slaves, etc. rather than hire free labor, beyond the "overseers."

Apparently, with hired free labor, the banks would not be so quick to extend the credit, as free labor might quit before they pressed them to maximize a guaranteed yield, so as to cover the credit extended, much less turn a profit. For example, it was generally figured on each slave putting out a minimum of .04 horsepower.

To ensure a maximized output, a driver with a whip (usually another slave) was frequently employed.

Most free men wanted little or no part in this kind of labor. Solomon Northup, while held as a slave in Louisiana says there was an occasional poor white man who would submit to plantation work with slaves.

Even after the war, the dearth of cash required the system of "Share Cropping" to employ the larger number of free laborers.

After the destruction of slave power in 1865 that the explosion in the value of the labor power of American free men developed markedly. Half a century later it was noted in the 1920s...

In the post-war years even N.B. Forrest attempted to move with the times some, and labored to establish railroads, etc. His financial situation collapsed in the early 1870s however.



A good book on the subject is Woodman's "King Cotton and His Retainers."

 

[KevMcNJ]

So long/short is the planters were fabulously wealthy but typically cash poor. Thanks.
Very interesting

 

[DanSBHawk]

Forrest, like most southerners, felt that the Yankees and their cohorts were invaders, whose only goal was to destroy, defeat and devastate the south's ability to defend themselves. It was a do or die situation. He was considered a patriot standing up to the evil invaders.

Funny how the soldiers show up if you start shooting. The best way to avoid being invaded is don't start a war.

 

[G Low]

Funny how you don't ever see any "I ride with Sherman stickers"

 

[gc45]

If Forrest's late-life conversion was genuine, then that is between himself and his maker. He lived most of his life in ways that were not admirable or honorable. The slave-trading, the Fort Pillow atrocity, the KKK. I'm not aware of any respectable general, on either side, ever giving enemy garrisons an ultimatum to either surrender or face no quarter. That violated the laws of war even then. In my opinion, Forrest is not someone to admire or hold up as a Godly person.

I can agree with what you have said. Forrest and others like him fought for a belief, a learned behavior that was generational. it's pretty easy to see why they went to war when your way of life is being attacked, albeit right or wrong. Forgiveness however goes a long way, even to Forrest; it is what we are asked to do.

 

[JonnyReb_In_MI]

Everyone and their Granny claims Forrest was something in the Klan... a founder, the Grand Wizard, or whatever...

Is there any proof documentation known to the public that Forrest was even so much as a member? Did he ever admit to (or deny) being anything in the Klan?

 

[Rebforever]

Forrest was voted in as grand whatever but refused to take it and left.

 

[KevMcNJ]

Forrest may have been terrible in the eyes of many, but our Lord only holds us accountable to our actions after we accept him as Lord and Savior. The Sinner's prayer removes our burden of past sins although, many have lifelong troubles with them, I know I do at times. Some will not agree with any of this, not asking for that; but I go to my maker believing in him, his acceptance, and that my name is written in the lamb's book of life. I would think Forrest's name is there also, if he had given himself over to his Lord.

Not long before both of them died, Jesus told the thief hanging next to him that he would be with Jesus and his Father that same day. It is never too late to repent and no one is not good enough

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Forrest and others like him fought for a belief, a learned behavior that was generational.

That is very true.
Slavery was a complicated moral issue even with many Southern slave owners during that era.

It's always been easy to condemn these people (then and now) for their views. But as you pointed out ... such was a learned behavior that had spanned generations.

However, as has been said ... no one except the Almighty knows what was truly in Nathan Bedford's heart at the end of his life.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Everyone and their Granny claims Forrest was something in the Klan... a founder, the Grand Wizard, or whatever...

Is there any proof documentation known to the public that Forrest was even so much as a member? Did he ever admit to (or deny) being anything in the Klan?

That's a good question. There is some controversy over the degree of Forrest's connection with the Klu Klux Klan (KKK).

Believe the KKK was originally formed by six Confederate veterans in Pulaski, TN, during May, 1866. (Their names were: James Crowe, Richard Reed, Calvin Jones, John C. Lester, Frank O. McCord and John Booker Kennedy).

As the KKK spread throughout the South, Forrest supposedly attended one of its meetings in the Maxwell House at Nashville, TN, during Apr., '67. According to meeting witnesses present, Forrest supposedly acquiesced to being elected to the position of the KKK's first (and only) grand wizard, by virtue of his previous military experience and reputation. (But found no evidence of any overt acceptance by Forrest). As the claims made by others go. Subsequently, Forrest was active in recruiting members of the KKK, but shortly afterwards, in Jan., '69, he apparently became disillusioned with governance of the organization and disbanded the KKK and withdrew his involvement.

Interestingly, John Wyeth in his comprehensive biography of Forrest, 'Life of General Nathan Bedford Forrest' (h/c 656 pages) stated at page 619 that at the Committee of Congress hearing in 1871-72 that inquired into the formation of the kuklux organization, Forrest testified that although he did not take an active part in the KKK, he knew of the organization's existence, and also urged for its disbanding.

Despite his temper and propensities for violence, given what's known of Forrest's character and integrity and his commitment to principles, would be inclined to accept any such testimony made by him at face value.

 

[G Low]

Forrest's speech during a meeting of the "Jubilee of Pole Bearers" is a story that needs to be told. Gen. Forrest was the first white man to be invited by this group which was a forerunner of today's Civil Right's group. A reporter of the Memphis Avalanche newspaper was sent to cover the event that included a Southern barbeque supper.

Miss Lou Lewis, daughter of a Pole Bearer member, was introduced to Forrest and she presented the former general a bouquet of flowers as a token of reconciliation, peace and good will. On July 5, 1875, Nathan Bedford Forrest delivered this speech:

"Ladies and Gentlemen, I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the Southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. (Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man, to depress none.

(Applause.)
I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand." (Prolonged applause.)

End of speech.1

Nathan Bedford Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.

J.H. Sears, Charles Kelly Barrow "Black Southerners In Confederate Armies" (Pelican, 2007)
Copied from a previous post on CWT

 

[DanSBHawk]

There is a lot of spin out there about Forrest and the Pole Bearers speech. People try to imply that Forrest had become enlightened on race in his later years. In fact, the Pole Bearers was not a "civil rights" group in the sense of advocating publicly for civil rights for blacks. They were more of an aid group.

Forrest and others who had built a life on black labor were trying to adjust to a new reality after the war. They had no choice but accept the military defeat, and the forced abolition of slaves, and of the new political realities of the former slaves having civil rights.

Forrest's 1875 speech can be read in the context of a man who's interested in racial peace and harmony mainly in order to continue the black labor system after slavery had been abolished. He was in failing health, and felt he would not live much longer. He was broken in spirit, according to his own writing.

But there is no evidence that he had become less racist in his views towards blacks. People that want to argue that Forrest had become an egalitarian in his last years need to come up with evidence that he actually tried to push for more racial equality in local or state or federal laws.

Whether he experienced some religious conversion is a completely separate issue, and as already stated earlier, that is something only he and his maker knows. It's ridiculous to try to make him into a saint.

 

[G Low]

There is a lot of spin out there about Forrest and the Pole Bearers speech. People try to imply that Forrest had become enlightened on race in his later years. In fact, the Pole Bearers was not a "civil rights" group in the sense of advocating publicly for civil rights for blacks. They were more of an aid group.

Forrest and others who had built a life on black labor were trying to adjust to a new reality after the war. They had no choice but accept the military defeat, and the forced abolition of slaves, and of the new political realities of the former slaves having civil rights.

Forrest's 1875 speech can be read in the context of a man who's interested in racial peace and harmony mainly in order to continue the black labor system after slavery had been abolished. He was in failing health, and felt he would not live much longer. He was broken in spirit, according to his own writing.

But there is no evidence that he had become less racist in his views towards blacks. People that want to argue that Forrest had become an egalitarian in his last years need to come up with evidence that he actually tried to push for more racial equality in local or state or federal laws.

Whether he experienced some religious conversion is a completely separate issue, and as already stated earlier, that is something only he and his maker knows. It's ridiculous to try to make him into a saint.

Or a devil, but haters are going to hate.

 

[DanSBHawk]

I guess anyone that doesn't worship Forrest is a "hater" now.

 

[gc45]

There is a lot of spin out there about Forrest and the Pole Bearers speech. People try to imply that Forrest had become enlightened on race in his later years. In fact, the Pole Bearers was not a "civil rights" group in the sense of advocating publicly for civil rights for blacks. They were more of an aid group.

Forrest and others who had built a life on black labor were trying to adjust to a new reality after the war. They had no choice but accept the military defeat, and the forced abolition of slaves, and of the new political realities of the former slaves having civil rights.

Forrest's 1875 speech can be read in the context of a man who's interested in racial peace and harmony mainly in order to continue the black labor system after slavery had been abolished. He was in failing health, and felt he would not live much longer. He was broken in spirit, according to his own writing.

But there is no evidence that he had become less racist in his views towards blacks. People that want to argue that Forrest had become an egalitarian in his last years need to come up with evidence that he actually tried to push for more racial equality in local or state or federal laws.

Whether he experienced some religious conversion is a completely separate issue, and as already stated earlier, that is something only he and his maker knows. It's ridiculous to try to make him into a saint.

I feel this quote from above disputes claims that Forrest had not changed for the better. I read no malice toward Blacks in this only hope for their future in all forms for life. If more folks both then and today, would remove hate from their heart to be replaced by peace, faith and love we would all be better off. Continued hate for what happened in the past does no one any good, but does keep the fires of disagreement burning regardless of truths.
Applause.)
I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand." (Prolonged applause.)

 

[DanSBHawk]

I feel this quote from above disputes claims that Forrest had not changed for the better. I read no malice toward Blacks in this only hope for their future in all forms for life. If more folks both then and today, would remove hate from their heart to be replaced by peace, faith and love we would all be better off. Continued hate for what happened in the past does no one any good, but does keep the fires of disagreement burning regardless of truths.
Applause.)
I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand." (Prolonged applause.)

I agree that there's no cause for hate. Historical figures should simply be noted by the facts of their life. Their actions. Certainly their writings and their speeches should be considered as well. But people should not try to imbue historical figures with qualities they did no demonstrate. Talk is cheap. Did Forrest ever advocate for black civil rights in any governmental setting?

There's no doubt that Forrest's demeanor changed as he neared the end of his life. More meek and peace-loving. But it's a step too far to assume he came to believe in racial equality. Social peace and harmony with the Memphis blacks enabled the continued use of their labor.

 

[G Low]

I feel this quote from above disputes claims that Forrest had not changed for the better. I read no malice toward Blacks in this only hope for their future in all forms for life. If more folks both then and today, would remove hate from their heart to be replaced by peace, faith and love we would all be better off. Continued hate for what happened in the past does no one any good, but does keep the fires of disagreement burning regardless of truths.
Applause.)
I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand." (Prolonged applause.)

I think it was all spin….

 

[G Low]

You don't see these made for just anybody.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Forrest's speech during a meeting of the "Jubilee of Pole Bearers" is a story that needs to be told. Gen. Forrest was the first white man to be invited by this group which was a forerunner of today's Civil Right's group. A reporter of the Memphis Avalanche newspaper was sent to cover the event that included a Southern barbeque supper.

Back when CWT had a dedicated Forrest forum ... we requested sub forums ...which were granted.
These Sub forums focused on Fort Pillow, his role in reconstruction, ect. As one of the forum hosts, it was my job to find all the NBF threads scattered all over CWT ... and to report them to another host (who was also a Moderator). She then moved the threads into the new Forrest forum. Our objective was to consolidate everything about General Forrest into one central location.

At one time, that Forrest forum probably had the most comprehensive information about the man on the internet ... in one place.
Long story short ... these threads still exist on CWT. Including quite a few debates about Forrest's religious views.

But since the previous search function is gone, it's now difficult to find these old threads and post links for all to read.

 

[G Low]

My cousin Bedford.