Forrest N.B. Forrest

[NCrebel]

* I recently edited this and also included here also the image diane posted later within the thread of General Forrest post-war*
Here is a tintype image I been told is circa ( early or late? ) 1870's that has a likeness to General Forrest. Included are also 2 other photographic images of General Forrest, one pre and other wartime. Also, Forrest is to me, a man of " many faces " so an opinion of which photos or paintings and drawings best represents him can vary a lot. I understand the majority of images of him are drawn or painted as well as created post war. One image collector thinks this may be ( and excuse me if this is disturbing ) a post mortem photograph of the General and thinks I should have it analyzed. It is recorded General Forrest barely weighed 100 pounds at the time of his passing at the age of 56 in Oct. 1877, so I imagine his facial characteristics would be changing. I have read that post morten photography was not uncommon during this time in American history and these photographers used techniques to enhance the appearance of the subject being photographed. What do you all think? I'm sure there are many other experts in the area of not only photography, but also in the understanding of the sources of biographical recordings of General Forrest including many things, like him going from dark to becoming slowly or quickly grey haired later in life. Did photographers go to the effort of dyeing hair color too in their art of post mortem photography? Books continue to be written including references to Forrest. And I for one had read few of them.

 

[UCVRelics]

It does bear a striking resemblance, can you post a photo of the back of the tintype?

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

@NCrebel, thanks for bringing your questions about this image to CivilWarTalk.

Along with @diane and @Nathanb1, I help host the Forrest forum. I invite you to visit.
There's some great information in there about General Forrest and his family.

I did find a thread from a couple of years ago regarding post War images of Forrest that you may find interesting:
http://civilwartalk.com/threads/general-forrest-picture.104970/#post-966897

Regarding the tintype, in my opinion the image is not that of Forrest.

 

[Stony]

The pic doesn't have the bad arse stare that Nathan has. So no.

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

Nope......Definitely NOT NB Forrest.......and most likely, not a Post-Mortem of anyone.....Not Forrest because his hair is too evenly colored and dark for the time period that this photo (circa 1870's) is alleged to have been taken.

 

[UCVRelics]

The stare got stronger when his Brother died in his arms but a lot dimmer when he surrendered his troops at Gainsville. There are very few photos of the Forrest clan pre or post war.

 

[Patrick H]

I am dubious, too, but I certainly welcome you, if I haven't already.

 

[diane]

That photo is interesting! It is not Nathan Bedford Forrest but it likely is one of the uncles. There were not post-mortem photos taken of Forrest. Looks like it was pre-war - there are two of those, one when he was about 20 and the other the one you have posted.

Forrest did have a number of health issues at the time of his death, and his weight loss was caused by chronic diaherra. That could have a number of causes - as you mention, cancer. It seems to have been diabetic neuropathy of the stomach, however. Long term, untreated diabetes can badly damage nerves. And, Forrest's wartime and pre-war injuries definitely did not help!

I hope some members of the Forrest family can shed a little more light on who this is! I've found a similar photograph that's since been removed from the internet - at least it's not where I can find it - that shows a similar man between two photos of Forrest. It says it is him, but it is clearly a man much too short and with different features - although he resembels members of the Forrest family.

Very interesting!

 

[NCrebel]

It does bear a striking resemblance, can you post a photo of the back of the tintype?

Here in an image of the back, and I see already a lot of response, coming in too. thank you.

 

[NCrebel]

The pic doesn't have the bad arse stare that Nathan has. So no.

I would look bad...but not too bad either I hope, if I had lost 60-80 or more pounds! We all, including myself, are not experts unfortunately.

 

[NCrebel]

A friend suggested I join this forum to see if I can get help in understanding better a circa 1870's tintype that appears to me, along with others who have seen it, to possibly be an image of General N.B. Forrest. Nathan had many brothers, I was told 7 other brothers. Another person who seen this suggested thought it may possibly be a relative of Nathan such as one of his brothers. But if it turns out to be him even non-conclusively, then I suspect it is likely postmortem. This image has more than only a likeness of Forrest too. There are only 2 surviving photographic images that I am aware of of N.B. Forrest, one pre and the other wartime in uniform. When a comparison is made of this image with his wartime image, one will find an exactness, but with a few exceptions. If this image is of him, he would be shown here between 12-14 years older than he was at time of him posing in uniform during the war, or posing at least in his wartime uniform.

This image reflects a thinning of hair and less fat in facial tissue. Also, the eye color is different from what it is supposed to be. These 3 things are enough to disqualify it too. However, there is some additional information to help understand more about N.B. Forrest's health prior to his death in late Oct, 1877. Recorded on page 70 and 71 of, " Medical Histories Of Confederate Generals " by Jack D. Welsh, is a summary of all the wounds, injuries, and sickness suffered by General Forrest right up until his death.


From the description provided in this book, Forrest was suffering from at least one, and possibly several, autoimmune diseases. It is recorded that Forrest had lost a lot of weight and barely weighed around 100 pounds at the time of his death. Based on the symptoms, suggests he may have had diabetes, but also could have had in conjunction with this, Celiac Disease. Untreated Celiac disease often leads to gastrointestinal cancer.

I recall reading an account of Forrest's hair remained dark throughout his life but one artist's painted rendition of him in post-war years shows him with thick grey hair. I do not know who made this painting or when. I do not know if it was done while General Forrest sat in a chair in the same room as the artist at time of creation.

I recall reading biographical recording of Forrest's eyes being blue, but the majority reported he had grey eye color instead. I learned that eye color often changes after death, and postmortem photography was not un-common at this time in American history. In some cases eye color can begin to change hours before death. I found cases where an individual's eyes being originally dark brown, have changed all the way to a light blue. By Google searching one can find a lot of information on this as well as see antique and modern photographs showing changes in the human eye after death. Also, it is not uncommon for the eye lid to remain open after death, but this can be done manually as well if done before rigor mortise sets in.

I also find it surprising there are not more photographic images surviving than only the two. A lack of photos of him suggests he probably did not desire his photo to be taken. I am fairly confident he had been asked, and likely encouraged, on a few occasions, especially after the war, when photography was becoming increasingly more popular. But he may have only sat down to be painted on canvas or some other medium instead? And, of all the artists creations, how many were done while General Forest was in the same room?

A few years ago when I had shown this image to a fellow who collected images he recommended I have a comparative analysis made with the other two known photographic images. He encouraged me to try to find someone who knew someone in law enforcement who specialized in this area, usually in a forensic department of law enforcement. where analysis of bone structure can be done often with the help of specialized computer software. Since this image is not connected to a crime, it could be challenging for just anyone, or a person like me, to find someone like this too. I do not know whether or not any conclusion could be made either. But I do think at least a probability or percentage chance can be established.

By posting this thread I hope to:
1- Get opinions on whether or not this image is possibly or conclusively postmortem with some degree of explanation.
2- Find the current location of the 2 original photographic images of N.B. Forrest and learn who took them, when and where they were taken.
3- Find out if any of the paintings or drawings of Forrest were done while he sat in a chair in front of the artist or done at the time Forrest was alive. I suspect many are done after his death.
4- Find someone who has experience and tools ( software ) for photographic image comparison ( I will pay them for their expertise and time and energy )

For as much that has been recorded about N.B. Forrest there are a lot of unknowns about him too.
I'm hopeful someone on this forum can add or even take away something to help get more understanding about the images, drawings and paintings of N.B. Forrest. I put along with this image a copy of his pre and wartime photograph.
View attachment 103873 View attachment 103878 View attachment 103883 View attachment 103884

 

[NCrebel]

I appreciate all the opinions but if possible including some degree of documentation, but hear say is OK too, I suppose. Also, I heard as, " hear say " that hair was sometimes darkened, especially on special occasions, more so than bleached to make lighter " back in the day " But in today's world done both ways but only on the living!

 

[diane]

One reason there are not many pictures of Forrest is not because he was adverse to having his picture taken but because heis last home on President's Island burned down with everything in it. Then, after the deaths of his spinster great-granddaughters most of the things were sold. From time to time something comes up. I'm hoping some family of Forrest's can help out - they've helped identify photos before.

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

I appreciate all the opinions but please make them with some more qualified evidence outside of, " in my mind I see " and less speculation. Thank you.

I did respond "with less speculation" when I stated the obvious: "Not Forrest because his hair is too evenly colored and dark for the time period that this photo (circa 1870's) is alleged to have been taken.".....I have seen post-war photos of Forrest, as many of them are in the numerous books about him, as well as on-line. I can safely say that anyone who has seen them will agree that Forrest's hair, in the time period that you suggest your photo was taken, in no way resembles that of the photograph in question.


I mean no offense, but you came here looking for answers.....I gave you an answer with evidence, despite your assertion that we here are "lacking much qualification"......

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I did respond "with less speculation" when I stated the obvious: "Not Forrest because his hair is too evenly colored and dark for the time period that this photo (circa 1870's) is alleged to have been taken.".....I have seen post-war photos of Forrest, as many of them are in the numerous books about him, as well as on-line. I can safely say that anyone who has seen them will agree that Forrest's hair, in the time period that you suggest your photo was taken, in no way resembles that of the photograph in question.


I mean no offense, but you came here looking for answers.....I gave you an answer with evidence, despite your assertion that we here are "lacking much qualification"......

Well said.

The new member asked for opinions and has received a few.

Since his solicited questions do not seem to fit with the answers he was looking for, I think I'm through with this thread.

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

Well said.

The new member asked for opinions and has received a few.

Since his solicited opinions do not seem to fit with what he wanted to hear, I think I'm through with this thread.

Thank you!!......I agree.....

 

[diane]

I appreciate all the opinions but please make them with some more qualified evidence outside of, " in my mind I see " and less speculation. Thank you.

I'm not sure what you want from us but we did our best! Sorry it wasn't what you were looking for.

 

[NCrebel]

I hear reports of post war photos of Forrest but I find none. ..only paintings where some are so well done they look like photographs. It would be great if anyone has time to locate and attach an image of one or more of the post war photographs!
And also, anyone knowing the names of the artists doing any of the many post war paintings that were done while he was living...please advise too. I think a lot of assumptions are made about all the post war artwork including what is...and what is not a photograph.

 

[diane]

Nicola Marschall did one from life in 1867:

Another was done from life by the same artist:

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Forrest's hair had begun to grey during the war although his beard remained dark. Toward the last few years of his life, he was grey totally and so was his beard. His eyes were gun metal grey, very striking, and never changed color. People commented on his eyes years after the war.

There are several post-war pictures of Forrest and they do show a progression in his illness. This one, for example:

One problem with post-war photos is many were doctored up in one way or another for some specific purpose - maybe for a news article, maybe for a ribbon, something. Sometimes it's kind of hard to tell, too!

 

[LoriAnn]

If this is indeed him, his hair looks much lighter here, especially compared to his beard.

civilwarcavalry.com

I just ran across this photo that looks very much like him. I've never seen this one before.

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