Musicians Swords

[7thWisconsin]

Ok. Let me rephrase:

On a battlefield, as opposed to a parade ground, would it be common to see a musician's sword.

If so, how would a model 1840 Musician's Sword, for tensile strength, length, width/thickness of blade hold up in a fight, not including horses, firearms, bayonets, ETC, to, let's just say for the sake of argument, an 1860's cavalry saber?

All training being equal.

Hypothetically.

Seem's I opened a can of worms...

Well, an even more interesting spin on your question is: really, how often were the musicians on the battlefield? We all know where they were supposed to be, but were they really there? Or were they dropped off with the surgeon or the baggage wagons more times than we´d like to admit?

 

[Bentonville]

Well, that's really the can of worms; cut or thrust? The cavalry sword was made to be used on horseback. It is heavier and more cumbersome, but it has a better cutting blade and 6 to 8 inches in length over the musician's sword. You could parry with the musician's sword but you want as little blade contact as necessary to save your hand from vibrations and sudden jerking motions of the sword. Assuming both combatants are on foot, the musician's sword will want to tire out the saber arm. Perhaps a series of retreats to keep the arm swinging. When the arm slows down, the saber feints to draw a parry from the saber that may be exaggerated. Then the musician's sword steps in and closes the distance. This would allow the musician's sword to make a thrust into target and retreat before the saber can counterattack. If the musician's sword aimed for the hand holding the saber it might disarm its opponent. The musician would need to be quick, agile and have something made of brass besides shoulder scales or a trumpet.

Thanks. I appreciate it. That's what I was getting at. Inarticulate as it was.

I had the opertunity to take fencing in college and passed it up.

 

[R. Porter]

Thanks. I appreciate it. That's what I was getting at. Inarticulate as it was.

I had the opertunity to take fencing in college and passed it up.

Unless you went to the right school you probably would have been taught wrong. I never went to a school that had a fencing team and my right hand has always been messed-ed up so I needed an orthopedic grip. Maybe I should have tried to fence saber, but fencing options were meager back then.

 

[Dan Kohli]

Well, an even more interesting spin on your question is: really, how often were the musicians on the battlefield? We all know where they were supposed to be, but were they really there? Or were they dropped off with the surgeon or the baggage wagons more times than we´d like to admit?

I'm fairly certain that there was attempt to at least keep a field musician or two near the regiment's or battery's CO.

 

[Bentonville]

Unless you went to the right school you probably would have been taught wrong. I never went to a school that had a fencing team and my right hand has always been messed-ed up so I needed an orthopedic grip. Maybe I should have tried to fence saber, but fencing options were meager back then.

Well this was 20 some (and I do mean odd) years ago. Probably the same thing going on as you. I'm more a firearms man. They did have that class. I ended up bowling. Guess it was a win-win...

 

[Glen_C]

I did write that I would be no less well protected by a 14 oz smallsword. You could threaten a Mack truck and disable one with an 1840 musician sword. They are stout little blades.

A surgeon with his sword during an amputation.

Surgeon Gilbert, Ft. Monroe, 1861. Photo found on braceface.com many years ago.

 

[Glen_C]

I'm fairly certain that there was attempt to at least keep a field musician or two near the regiment's or battery's CO.

Yes, the drum corp (with fifes)

 

[Old Soldier]

Yes, the drum corp (with fifes)

The band was in the field with the regiment. Drum and fife were part of a company who were only got together when OUT of the field of battle, espcially on the march. The drummers' job was to keep the company in step and to pass company commands by drum-roll. This was considered to be the best method for men already deafened by firing. The band was there behind the line - the 'field musicians'. This appears to have varied with the regiment - and the availability of musicians. And, yes, some DID play in combat situations.

A good reference is : https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/armybands.pdf

As for 'did they need their swords?' - highly unlikely, but it looked good.

 

[Don Dixon]

One thing that has been missed in this discussion was the fact that musicians had historically been viewed as non-combatants. After battle they served as stretcher bearers and medical orderlies. Prior to the Civil War, the colors of their uniform jackets were different than the colors of the jackets of line infantry. One sees this in the ceremonial uniform of the fife and drum section of the Commander and Chief's Guard of the 3rd Infantry Regiment, U.S. Army. The line infantry wear continental blue jackets, while the fife and drum section wear red coats. In British units in the Revolutionary War the musicians often wore blue coats. The musicians' sword was consequently a defensive rather than an offensive weapon.

 

[Kurtlg]

One thing that has been missed in this discussion was the fact that musicians had historically been viewed as non-combatants. After battle they served as stretcher bearers and medical orderlies. Prior to the Civil War, the colors of their uniform jackets were different than the colors of the jackets of line infantry. One sees this in the ceremonial uniform of the fife and drum section of the Commander and Chief's Guard of the 3rd Infantry Regiment, U.S. Army. The line infantry wear continental blue jackets, while the fife and drum section wear red coats. In British units in the Revolutionary War the musicians often wore blue coats. The musicians' sword was consequently a defensive rather than an offensive weapon.

During the Revolution musicians wore reversed colors. Their jacket color was the same as the regiments facing color. If , for example , the facing color was buff , the jacket would be buff with red facings ( British) or usually blue ( Continental).

 

[Old Soldier]

Talking about 'reversed colors', not quite 'On subject', but here is a British infantry battalion in India (winter uniform - red with white facing). Spot the band. Note the guys in the rear ranks with piped sleeves are the fifes who were COMPANY men.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

The band was in the field with the regiment. Drum and fife were part of a company who were only got together when OUT of the field of battle, espcially on the march. The drummers' job was to keep the company in step and to pass company commands by drum-roll. This was considered to be the best method for men already deafened by firing. The band was there behind the line - the 'field musicians'. This appears to have varied with the regiment - and the availability of musicians. And, yes, some DID play in combat situations.
View attachment 503041

A good reference is : https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/armybands.pdf

As for 'did they need their swords?' - highly unlikely, but it looked good.

It is important not to confuse the terms "band" and "field music" as they had entirely different roles and compositions.

 

[Old Soldier]

Band are the musicians. Field music are drums and fifes/bugles/bagpipes which, as I stated was as much for control as anything else. BOTH were on the battlefield. Below is another diagram of a US infantry regiment of this period IN LINE. Note that the bugles are for the skirmishers and that the band is behind the field musicians. For many British regimental bands this is still the way they form up - drums and fifes to the front, the rest behind (which includes the bass drum!)

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Band are the musicians. Field music are drums and fifes/bugles/bagpipes which, as I stated was as much for control as anything else. BOTH were on the battlefield. Below is another diagram of a US infantry regiment of this period IN LINE. Note that the bugles are for the skirmishers and that the band is behind the field musicians. For many British regimental bands this is still the way they form up - drums and fifes to the front, the rest behind (which includes the bass drum!)

View attachment 503057

Yep, that's certainly how it's drawn up in the regulations……

Once again the regs differ significantly from reality, though…the band and most of the field music were rarely on the battlefield, unless detailed to the ambulance. A bugler or two, maybe a drummer. No bagpipes.

 

[Old Soldier]

Yep, that's certainly how it's drawn up in the regulations……

Once again the regs differ significantly from reality, though…the band and most of the field music were rarely on the battlefield, unless detailed to the ambulance. A bugler or two, maybe a drummer. No bagpipes.

There are a number of occasions when the band DID play in combat situations but, as you say, they were often involved with med/evac. A number of NY volunteer regiments adopted Scottish dress and custom - including kilts and pipe bands, but how long they lasted in the field is anyone's guess.
A good source is MUSIC AND THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR by CHRISTIAN MCWHIRTER https://ir-api.ua.edu/api/core/bitstreams/97484f7b-9173-4aa5-922d-fa7d7ac19b1b/content

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Yep, that's certainly how it's drawn up in the regulations……

Once again the regs differ significantly from reality, though…the band and most of the field music were rarely on the battlefield, unless detailed to the ambulance. A bugler or two, maybe a drummer.

There are a number of occasions when the band DID play in combat situations but, as you say, they were often involved with med/evac. A number of NY volunteer regiments adopted Scottish dress and custom - including kilts and pipe bands, but how long they lasted in the field is anyone's guess.
A good source is MUSIC AND THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR by CHRISTIAN MCWHIRTER https://ir-api.ua.edu/api/core/bitstreams/97484f7b-9173-4aa5-922d-fa7d7ac19b1b/content

Lots of references to fifes, drums, and bugles in that piece. Nothing about pipes and kilts.

 

[Old Soldier]

Lots of references to fifes, drums, and bugles in that piece. Nothing about pipes and kilts.

Never said there was. However, it does explain those strange brass wind instruments we see in all those photos.