Musicians Swords

[Glen_C]

We had another thread on that question too and the answer came back that those were the only RECORDED WOUNDS. The bayonet was - at that time - a pretty lethal weapon and tended to kill rather than wound. No one mentions the number of dead solders who were killed - or finished off - with the bayonet.

Right and deaths are not recorded outside of anecdotal accounts of massive artillery barrage. If we return to the accounts of musicians, we lack any accounts (in this discussion and many others) of musicians fighting with their sword (if they may have been issued one). Illness and artillery, the greatest killers and maimers of the ACW.

Although absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, just like so many topics requiring some proof to carry history and not a blanket speculation. ie; 'As musicians did have a sword designed for them, they all must have fielded them and were certainly used' Let's go back to the drum&fife picture. Those are field musicians. Compare that to parade and Potomac imagery. So, show me the money. Show me a period written account. Battle and skirmish accounts and officer's reports are anything but rare, except the elusive nco and musician saved by the sword story. Really, I'd enjoy reading any.

This thread began with the inquisitive, including 'did surgeons use swords to expedite surgery' Sorry, a big eye roll when I read that and I moved on weeks ago. Then I read of the gallantry of musicians defending their lives with their swords.

Again, note field drummers and fife. 'That's not regulation' Kewl. How many regulations were there. All I have ever read is 'as regular infantry with a lace trimmed frock' If you follow that google search link and search images, no one I know of has covered the realities very well, but perhaps that symposium linked from and for musician historians might share a general lifestyle. Then there are the David Cole musings on uniforms.

Cheers
GC

 

[7thWisconsin]

You have to throw cultural expectations into the mix here too. No one was expecting musicians to be bloodthirsty killers. The cultural expectation at the time, often romanticized, was the sweet tow-headed drummer boy who did his duty in rain sleet snow and flying enemy bullets. I´d be surprised if anyone would dare to put in a memoir or regimental history that he saw dear sweet Billy run someone through. I think it would have been mentally edited and been one of those things no one ever mentioned again. We´re spinning our wheels a little bit here, because the evidence is inconclusive.

 

[R. Porter]

I believe the original question was in two parts. The first was were musician swords carried into the field? What does into the field mean? If it means, "were they carried onto the battlefield as weapons?" We would need to establish that musicians were on the battlefield during battle in the first place. Have we done that? It would appear that there is no known photographic evidence of this for this thread at this time. That leaves us with documentary evidence. What documentary evidence places musicians on the battlefield and where when the shootin's going on? Does this evidence mention musicians swords?

The second part is would it stand up to a cavalry saber? In theory the cavalry saber will be used to deliver a slash from an adult male on horseback. This implies a good bit of momentum. The musician's sword blade is pretty sturdy so it probably won't be chopped in two but it may be driven back against the musician and knock him down. As far as thrust goes, the cavalry saber is usually curved to some degree and the point is not that thick on the model 1840 and 1860. British sabers like the Pattern 1821 and Pattern 1853 have much straighter blades with reinforced spear points. All saber blades tend to fall in the 34 to 36 inch length range. The musician's sword is straight but only about 28 inches long. While the blade of the musician's sword might parry a cut or two it would take some non-standard combat moves for the musician to prevail. I might suggest running like the wind.

 

[Glen_C]

Once more, in the field it was drum and fife, a means of communication. Fife and drum were used into WWII (notably, the Germans). For commanders to send orders to the foot officers and nco, as to better direct traffic. Yes, lots of swords were made and an unsurprising number that show up are in great shape.

It may seem silly but why would anyone take on a horse and sabre, with a 'spit' in hand? Even pike squares of old were taken apart by cavalry and rodeleros.

The hypothetical may certainly be entertaining but it is an unfortunate byproduct that fosters base ignorance and perpetuates myths.

Think three types of musicians during the ACW. Field, fife, drum, and buglers (almost a separate entity). More brass for marching and camp entertainment. Larger parade. Chamber groups.

If you check buglers, there is more likely a chance for a sword, especially cavalry buglers. Mex-Am war years dragoon bugler rode with a full sabre such as the 1833. The Starr 1818 and other archaic builds filling some gaps as were the short helmet head swords before the ACW.

If you look at image searches, and you know Mathew Brady, the mention was not a slight. Someone might take that as inflammatory but I posted a sincere inquiry. Gone is my copy of plates. I had the book 30 years ago and gave it away, along with a thick MOH book. Little, Brown&Co. were giving away old editions before the remainder slated for destruction. I forklifted all of it. The real shame was watching flats of Ansel Adams lithographs getting thrown into the compacter. Anyway, a great book. Pictures of the dead are most often missing weapons. There are quite a few pictures of infantry ncos with swords.


I'd be repeating myself.
Cheers

 

[Old Soldier]

Fife and drums was NOT 'the band' but part of each company helping to keep step on the march. Commands were passed by drum and bugle. In the British army today the Corps of Drums and/or pipe band are signallers (radio operators). The band in the field often helped in taking care of the wounded. Today the 'band' are trained in casevac - (stretcher bearers).

On at least one battle, the Custer's cavalry charged the enemy with the band playing. There was even a 'Battle of the Bands' the evening before the Battle of Murfreesboro. It was one tune against the other's. No swords were used.

 

[R. Porter]

I forgot to mention an indirect method for determining the use of musician's swords "in the field" and that would be how often they are found by metal detectorists. Based on books I have seen which show relics uncovered over the years I would say the three most common types are cavalry sabers, NCO swords, and officer's swords. Musician's swords would be, at best, in fourth place. I would say they were not so common on campaign.

 

[Old Soldier]

I forgot to mention an indirect method for determining the use of musician's swords "in the field" and that would be how often they are found by metal detectorists. Based on books I have seen which show relics uncovered over the years I would say the three most common types are cavalry sabers, NCO swords, and officer's swords. Musician's swords would be, at best, in fourth place. I would say they were not so common on campaign.

The bands were only a small percentage of the men in the field anyway. iIt could also be said that they were the least likely to lose or drop their swords.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Curious if any experienced drummers have ever tried to play while marching and wearing a musician's sword.

 

[7thWisconsin]

Curious if any experienced drummers have ever tried to play while marching and wearing a musician's sword.

Similar sword in my French and Indian kit - you push it around a little behind you while you´re playing and it doesn´t get in the way at all.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Similar sword in my French and Indian kit - you push it around a little behind you while you´re playing and it doesn´t get in the way at all.

I remain unconvinced. The lack of reference in writing and photos, the documented fact that troops routinely dropped items seen as too heavy for the effort, and again, the triumph of the citizen soldier over pesky army regulations - all these factors point to me that musicians swords would have been one of the first items "accidentally" left behind, or dumped in a river, like the chest of shoulder scales from the 18th US Regulars (Regulars!) as referenced in Johnson's That Body of Brave Men.

 

[Old Soldier]

I remain unconvinced. The lack of reference in writing and photos, the documented fact that troops routinely dropped items seen as too heavy for the effort, and again, the triumph of the citizen soldier over pesky army regulations - all these factors point to me that musicians swords would have been one of the first items "accidentally" left behind, or dumped in a river, like the chest of shoulder scales from the 18th US Regulars (Regulars!) as referenced in Johnson's That Body of Brave Men.

The items 'dumped' were not a personal issue item, nor were they checked to ensure you still had them. A musicians sword would be! OCs orders!!!!!

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

The items 'dumped' were not a personal issue item, nor were they checked to ensure you still had them. A musicians sword would be! OCs orders!!!!!

Shoulder scales were part of the dress uniform of the US Regular soldier. There was a whole thing in the book about it, which I would suggest you read, as it's written by a modern veteran and sheds a lot of light on how foreign the army was back then compared to our modern understanding, and the differences between what was supposed to happen according to regulations, and what actually happened day to day.

Primary source accounts abound with people tossing items on the march, dumping them, leaving them. If you want to believe everyone followed regulations and the majority of musicians were lugging around a heavy, useless item that would only hinder them in carrying out their battlefield duties - ie, tending to the wounded - in the hopes that one day they could earn some glory by getting close enough to the enemy to run him through, that's certainly your prerogative. To me though, it doesn't mesh with the research I and others have done, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread. "But the regulations say" is certainly one way to approach history, but in my experience it doesn't always match up with the rest of the primary sources.

Your mileage may vary.

If Tom deserted for 6 months, returned, and the only thing that happened to him was he had to forfeit his pay and do some extra guard duty, what real punishment is Jim going to expect for "losing" his sword? Especially when he hasn't been paid in 4 months? Citizen soldiers have a will of their own.

 

[Glen_C]

French F&I marines, the short one. Hangers common as bayos evolve. A good fighting blade.

French Infantry 1830s, fit for parade (yes, on the flank, bayo and glaive. Spanking as you go)

Peterson #5. A fighting nco/junior officer sword

The Starr 1818, about the weight of a standard 1840 musician sword

As I posted early in my responses, the US 1840 musician sword is no slouch and if I were into prowess for defense, one could ward off even heavier items. However if options were limited, I personally would feel no less under armed with a 14 oz smallsword (I've both, of course ).


See polearm vs dagger bouts in the HEMA crowd. Stephen Hand offered a delightful discussion on the subject, back around 2001 on Netsword It started with rapier vs longsword). I've several 19th century military fencing 'manuals' and was more of a Silver & Agrippa era fop. The video linked with Matt far post dates my internet discussions with him. His board died but he had assembled studies back to the 14th century and earlier (like 1:33).

SCHOLA GLADIATORIA FORUM • Index page

The Royal Sword (David Leyoden) had and has some batches of F&I repros and David's associate in NJ (paint2 on ebay), importing some pretty nice swords for the price. Great for the reenactors. I have a Rose and smallsword from them.

One on one cqb and cqc fights are done in a flash.

Band swords were quite universal in European based armies, there was no reason not to order siblings for the nco, which in turn (by the evidence) was little used in ACW battle. I feel an nco was much more likely to prefer a longer point attached to a long stock.


Cheers
GC

 

[Old Soldier]

Shoulder scales were part of the dress uniform of the US Regular soldier. There was a whole thing in the book about it, which I would suggest you read, as it's written by a modern veteran and sheds a lot of light on how foreign the army was back then compared to our modern understanding, and the differences between what was supposed to happen according to regulations, and what actually happened day to day.

Primary source accounts abound with people tossing items on the march, dumping them, leaving them. If you want to believe everyone followed regulations and the majority of musicians were lugging around a heavy, useless item that would only hinder them in carrying out their battlefield duties - ie, tending to the wounded - in the hopes that one day they could earn some glory by getting close enough to the enemy to run him through, that's certainly your prerogative. To me though, it doesn't mesh with the research I and others have done, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread. "But the regulations say" is certainly one way to approach history, but in my experience it doesn't always match up with the rest of the primary sources.

Your mileage may vary.

If Tom deserted for 6 months, returned, and the only thing that happened to him was he had to forfeit his pay and do some extra guard duty, what real punishment is Jim going to expect for "losing" his sword? Especially when he hasn't been paid in 4 months? Citizen soldiers have a will of their own.

A 'chest' of shoulder scale were not dumped by an individual. That was dumped by a QM or commanding officer.

 

[Bentonville]

The advantages of the thrusting sword are that it can maneuver in a tight space, and produce lethal wounds quickly. You don´t need the whole length of the blade to kill someone; you just need the last three inches in the vitals. That leaves you with the rest of the blade to parry. I do think that in the hands of a moderately skilled individual, the musician´s or NCO sword could be pretty dangerous. I don´t know how many of the old timers would fit that description of ¨moderately skilled¨ though.

I know what you're saying. The cutlass, in all it's various permutations, was a close quarters weapon.

Was the College Hill saber designer trying to make 'crossover' blade? Or were they like depot jackets?

 

[John Winn]

Now, you know that back then those musicians were likely a rowdy bunch (as they have been mostly since we started keeping notes on them). So, somebody had to be in control and have some means to demonstrate that. Get out of key or off beat and measures could be taken. That's my take on why a musician would have carried a sword.

I know many musicians who'd probably love to have a sword every now and then.

 

[Bentonville]

Now, you know that back then those musicians were likely a rowdy bunch (as they have been mostly since we started keeping notes on them). So, somebody had to be in control and have some means to demonstrate that. Get out of key or off beat and measures could be taken. That's my take on why a musician would have carried a sword.

I know many musicians who'd probably love to have a sword every now and then.

To spite my best efforts I have yet to get past a bouncer and get a sword on stage. Yet...

 

[Bentonville]

Right and deaths are not recorded outside of anecdotal accounts of massive artillery barrage. If we return to the accounts of musicians, we lack any accounts (in this discussion and many others) of musicians fighting with their sword (if they may have been issued one). Illness and artillery, the greatest killers and maimers of the ACW.

Although absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, just like so many topics requiring some proof to carry history and not a blanket speculation. ie; 'As musicians did have a sword designed for them, they all must have fielded them and were certainly used' Let's go back to the drum&fife picture. Those are field musicians. Compare that to parade and Potomac imagery. So, show me the money. Show me a period written account. Battle and skirmish accounts and officer's reports are anything but rare, except the elusive nco and musician saved by the sword story. Really, I'd enjoy reading any.

This thread began with the inquisitive, including 'did surgeons use swords to expedite surgery' Sorry, a big eye roll when I read that and I moved on weeks ago. Then I read of the gallantry of musicians defending their lives with their swords.

Again, note field drummers and fife. 'That's not regulation' Kewl. How many regulations were there. All I have ever read is 'as regular infantry with a lace trimmed frock' If you follow that google search link and search images, no one I know of has covered the realities very well, but perhaps that symposium linked from and for musician historians might share a general lifestyle. Then there are the David Cole musings on uniforms.

Cheers
GC

Swords to expedite surgery. It's was a joke.

 

[Bentonville]

I believe the original question was in two parts. The first was were musician swords carried into the field? What does into the field mean? If it means, "were they carried onto the battlefield as weapons?" We would need to establish that musicians were on the battlefield during battle in the first place. Have we done that? It would appear that there is no known photographic evidence of this for this thread at this time. That leaves us with documentary evidence. What documentary evidence places musicians on the battlefield and where when the shootin's going on? Does this evidence mention musicians swords?

The second part is would it stand up to a cavalry saber? In theory the cavalry saber will be used to deliver a slash from an adult male on horseback. This implies a good bit of momentum. The musician's sword blade is pretty sturdy so it probably won't be chopped in two but it may be driven back against the musician and knock him down. As far as thrust goes, the cavalry saber is usually curved to some degree and the point is not that thick on the model 1840 and 1860. British sabers like the Pattern 1821 and Pattern 1853 have much straighter blades with reinforced spear points. All saber blades tend to fall in the 34 to 36 inch length range. The musician's sword is straight but only about 28 inches long. While the blade of the musician's sword might parry a cut or two it would take some non-standard combat moves for the musician to prevail. I might suggest running like the wind.

Ok. Let me rephrase:

On a battlefield, as opposed to a parade ground, would it be common to see a musician's sword.

If so, how would a model 1840 Musician's Sword, for tensile strength, length, width/thickness of blade hold up in a fight, not including horses, firearms, bayonets, ETC, to, let's just say for the sake of argument, an 1860's cavalry saber?

All training being equal.

Hypothetically.

Seem's I opened a can of worms...

 

[R. Porter]

Ok. Let me rephrase:

On a battlefield, as opposed to a parade ground, would it be common to see a musician's sword.

If so, how would a model 1840 Musician's Sword, for tensile strength, length, width/thickness of blade hold up in a fight, not including horses, firearms, bayonets, ETC, to, let's just say for the sake of argument, an 1860's cavalry saber?

All training being equal.

Hypothetically.

Seem's I opened a can of worms...

Well, that's really the can of worms; cut or thrust? The cavalry sword was made to be used on horseback. It is heavier and more cumbersome, but it has a better cutting blade and 6 to 8 inches in length over the musician's sword. You could parry with the musician's sword but you want as little blade contact as necessary to save your hand from vibrations and sudden jerking motions of the sword. Assuming both combatants are on foot, the musician's sword will want to tire out the saber arm. Perhaps a series of retreats to keep the arm swinging. When the arm slows down, the saber feints to draw a parry from the saber that may be exaggerated. Then the musician's sword steps in and closes the distance. This would allow the musician's sword to make a thrust into target and retreat before the saber can counterattack. If the musician's sword aimed for the hand holding the saber it might disarm its opponent. The musician would need to be quick, agile and have something made of brass besides shoulder scales or a trumpet.