Musicians Swords

[Bentonville]

Begs the question; were these carried in the field or for ceremonial use only? And how would one hold up to a saber?

 

[7thWisconsin]

They were carried in the field. They were the only weapon a musician had, as well as being a badge of rank and position. The 19th century was still working out some of the ceremonial trappings of previous centuries when swords were jewelry. As a weapon, they´re really a self-defense weapon. I think you could parry a saber a few times, at least enough to say, ¨I´m just a drummer for God´s sake!¨ but I think that a musician´s sword is a pretty low military threat.

 

[Bentonville]

They were carried in the field. They were the only weapon a musician had, as well as being a badge of rank and position. The 19th century was still working out some of the ceremonial trappings of previous centuries when swords were jewelry. As a weapon, they´re really a self-defense weapon. I think you could parry a saber a few times, at least enough to say, ¨I´m just a drummer for God´s sake!¨ but I think that a musician´s sword is a pretty low military threat.

Begs the question; in a pinch were the doc's using their swords for surgery?

 

[7thWisconsin]

Begs the question; in a pinch were the doc's using their swords for surgery?

LOL - in the same way they were badge of rank, jewelry and self defense.

 

[Dan Kohli]

The musician's and NCO's swords were not made for saber style of combat. They were made more for a thrust only centric fighting style. The saber U.S. sabers were more of a cut and thrust type of weapon.

 

[7thWisconsin]

The NCO sword, too. I used McClellan´s manual and learned to fence with my NCO sword when I got it because I feel like if I´m going to carry it, I should know how to use it.

 

[R. Porter]

Musician and NCO swords were built to be pretty robust. In my opinion they were both more heavy-duty than any officer's spadroon used in the U.S. Military up to that time. It was probably a true cut and thrust weapon. The argument of cut vs. thrust in swords had been going on for a while. While a cutting weapon produces more blood and perhaps the separation of more body parts, its attack, on average is more shallow. A thrust may be small, cleanly done, and produce less blood and mess, but on average it goes deeper to the internal organs and is more deadly. A cut and thrust wheapon attempts to do both. Often a thrusting blade is longer, thinner, and more flexible than a cutting blade. Cutting blades are often wide and curved, making it more difficult to thrust.

The Musician and NCO swords are more rigid and may not taper as much as a typical thrusting blade, however, it can thrust. If you put a keen edge on the blade you may not be able to chop off an arm but you will be able to inflict some nasty cuts. While infantry officer saber blades may be more similar to what the cavalry was swinging around the Musician and NCO swords were no slouches; they would hold up to a few whacks from a cavalry blade and maybe inflict a nasty stab wound in between. I think Gen Forrest commented on the fact that saber wielders seem to forget to use the point which allowed him to win a fight more than once. I'm not so sure how Musician and NCO sword would do in a thrusting fencing match but with no foible it would be like fencing someone using a piece of rebar. Still, they are more maneuverable, much lighter than a cavalry saber of the period and probably and infantry saber too.

I did stumble across a youtube video by a British sword guy a few months ago where he evaluated the NCO sword and had a similar opinion of it.

 

[7thWisconsin]

The advantages of the thrusting sword are that it can maneuver in a tight space, and produce lethal wounds quickly. You don´t need the whole length of the blade to kill someone; you just need the last three inches in the vitals. That leaves you with the rest of the blade to parry. I do think that in the hands of a moderately skilled individual, the musician´s or NCO sword could be pretty dangerous. I don´t know how many of the old timers would fit that description of ¨moderately skilled¨ though.

 

[Glen_C]

Matt has come to understand more in his decade of spadroon ownership. Go to his channel and search "spadroon". One should start with his oldest impression.
What is a spadroon?

A decade ago, he was just starting a family and incorporating a job at an auction house and then selling old swords directly. As with many of us, we are always learning. Search "cleaning" on his channel and there is a hilarious one of him using a drill and wire wheel. Matt's an expert HEMA medieval student/fighter but still has a lot to discover about late swords. He does have the dynamics down.

The musician sword would be a good bedroom pillow sword.

Find me one or two Matthew Brady photos of a musician with a sword on the battlefield. For that matter any account or image of a musician employing their sword as a weapon (honest, I'd love to even read of such an event).

Cheers
GC

 

[7thWisconsin]

Matt has come to understand more in his decade of spadroon ownership. Go to his channel and search "spadroon". One should start with his oldest impression.
What is a spadroon?

A decade ago, he was just starting a family and incorporating a job at an auction house and then selling old swords directly. As with many of us, we are always learning. Search "cleaning" on his channel and there is a hilarious one of him using a drill and wire wheel. Matt's an expert HEMA medieval student/fighter but still has a lot to discover about late swords. He does have the dynamics down.

The musician sword would be a good bedroom pillow sword.

Find me one or two Matthew Brady photos of a musician with a sword on the battlefield. For that matter any account or image of a musician employing their sword as a weapon (honest, I'd love to even read of such an event).

Cheers
GC

The Civil War was well before the era of ¨without pictures it didn´t happen.¨ If you start requiring battlefield photography as the sina qua non, you will be looking at the same few dozen images for everything. It was part of the uniform, a badge of position and the only weapon the musician has. I´m going with ¨yes. They made battlefield appearnaces.¨

 

[7thWisconsin]

Musician and NCO swords were built to be pretty robust. In my opinion they were both more heavy-duty than any officer's spadroon used in the U.S. Military up to that time. It was probably a true cut and thrust weapon. The argument of cut vs. thrust in swords had been going on for a while. While a cutting weapon produces more blood and perhaps the separation of more body parts, its attack, on average is more shallow. A thrust may be small, cleanly done, and produce less blood and mess, but on average it goes deeper to the internal organs and is more deadly. A cut and thrust wheapon attempts to do both. Often a thrusting blade is longer, thinner, and more flexible than a cutting blade. Cutting blades are often wide and curved, making it more difficult to thrust.

The Musician and NCO swords are more rigid and may not taper as much as a typical thrusting blade, however, it can thrust. If you put a keen edge on the blade you may not be able to chop off an arm but you will be able to inflict some nasty cuts. While infantry officer saber blades may be more similar to what the cavalry was swinging around the Musician and NCO swords were no slouches; they would hold up to a few whacks from a cavalry blade and maybe inflict a nasty stab wound in between. I think Gen Forrest commented on the fact that saber wielders seem to forget to use the point which allowed him to win a fight more than once. I'm not so sure how Musician and NCO sword would do in a thrusting fencing match but with no foible it would be like fencing someone using a piece of rebar. Still, they are more maneuverable, much lighter than a cavalry saber of the period and probably and infantry saber too.

I did stumble across a youtube video by a British sword guy a few months ago where he evaluated the NCO sword and had a similar opinion of it.

I agree with his appraisal of how the NCO sword handles completely. The bit about how your thumb nestles into that spot by the quillion is absolutely true. He cites its lineage back to the 1816 French sword - actually there were grenadier epees in the 1750s that were almost identical in blade length and width, and very similar in the hilt. It could be an overall French design the Americans were copying.

 

[Glen_C]

The Civil War was well before the era of ¨without pictures it didn´t happen.¨ If you start requiring battlefield photography as the sina qua non, you will be looking at the same few dozen images for everything. It was part of the uniform, a badge of position and the only weapon the musician has. I´m going with ¨yes. They made battlefield appearnaces.¨

Have you ever sat with all the Brady battlefield photography? Are you familiar with his work? If you are expecting speculation to prove anything, you might as well run for office I will repeat; 'honest, I'd love to even read of such an event'. Just offering such might share some light to prove someone's speculation.

I do have a musician boy USMC sword, sold by a Gettysburg dealer. I could speculate it was a field pickup from that battle but there is no proof of that. I could speculate that all of my dozens and dozens of swords had glorious battle honors but the whole glorification of such speculation, to me, just is not good science.

I have a photo file of musicians in camp. All are wearing sword sashes and belts, none are wearing swords. The nco is wearing a cross belt but no scabbard showing. Some of the drummers (see the older guy with some tenure) aren't even wearing belts on their sashes. None that are wearing belts appear to have a frog to carry a sword. Yes, it is a posed image in camp but worth pondering.

Diaries/journals, letters home, photos. In your experiences, have you ever come across any physical evidence of battlefield use?

My musician boy sword 'may' have been there and done that at Gettysburg. One could write novels.

Compare to minty.

The 1864 Ames nco shown with it was likely never carried.

See U426 here Mine is marked to Roby and otherwise identical

ARIZONA SWORDS

So it's not really a matter of photographic evidence but any evidence whatsoever. Morgan Freeman being awarded a sword in 'Glory' doesn't count.

 

[Glen_C]

From an MOH thread regarding musicians 'There is one notable account of a group of musicians who took it upon themselves to join a fight with their instruments and not guns. During the collapse of the Union line at the Battle of Chancellorsville on 3 May 1863, the band of the 14th Connecticut Infantry, on their own initiative, stood firm and played in an effort to unify the panicked troops retreating around them. Pennsylvanian Frederick Hitchcock saw the effect of this courageous performance: "Its strains were clear and thrilling for a moment, then smothered by that fearful din, an instant later sounding bold and clear again, as if it would fearlessly emphasize the refrain, 'Our flag is still there.'"41 Hitchock's linking of patriotic music with the national flag is understandable. A regiment's flags, including the national flag and the regiment's distinctive colors, were treasured symbols. Not only did flags serve as a rallying point on the battlefield, they represented the history and soul of the regiment. To lose your colors to the enemy was a great shame, and countless brutal fights could be found centered around the color guard.'

Union Musicians and the Medal of Honor During the American Civil War | Music & Songs of the 1860's

Here's a good article on the unsung heroes of the Civil War (pun intended). "Indeed, it is arguable that Civil War musicians were as valuable as the music they performed." https://symposium.music.org/index.php/54/item/10638-union-musicians-and-the-medal-of-honor-during-the-american-civil-war...

civilwartalk.com

Not one mention of sword during that gallantry.

 

[major bill]

Some great images of musician swords. Were these swords worth the cost of providing them? I do wonder how many enemy soldiers fell on the field of battle to a musician's sword.

 

[Glen_C]

The total edged weapon (including by bayonet) wounds/casualties in said to be less than 1%.

 

[R. Porter]

Are there any photos showing individuals participating in actual combat? There are some of men engaged in mock combat.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/union-soldiers-having-a-mock-sword-fight.159604/

The photo on the first page may not have a guy with an NCO sword but the guy in back is swinging a shovel, so I couldn't resist. Shovels were a weapon of choice of the Native Americans in the Indian attack of 1622. They handle less well than the Model 1840 NCO Sword or the Model 1840 Musician's Sword.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/favorite-goofy-civil-war-photos.184934/

 

[7thWisconsin]

Have you ever sat with all the Brady battlefield photography? Are you familiar with his work? If you are expecting speculation to prove anything, you might as well run for office I will repeat; 'honest, I'd love to even read of such an event'. Just offering such might share some light to prove someone's speculation.

I do have a musician boy USMC sword, sold by a Gettysburg dealer. I could speculate it was a field pickup from that battle but there is no proof of that. I could speculate that all of my dozens and dozens of swords had glorious battle honors but the whole glorification of such speculation, to me, just is not good science.

I have a photo file of musicians in camp. All are wearing sword sashes and belts, none are wearing swords. The nco is wearing a cross belt but no scabbard showing. Some of the drummers (see the older guy with some tenure) aren't even wearing belts on their sashes. None that are wearing belts appear to have a frog to carry a sword. Yes, it is a posed image in camp but worth pondering.

View attachment 500590


Diaries/journals, letters home, photos. In your experiences, have you ever come across any physical evidence of battlefield use?

My musician boy sword 'may' have been there and done that at Gettysburg. One could write novels.

Compare to minty.View attachment 500591View attachment 500592

View attachment 500593

The 1864 Ames nco shown with it was likely never carried.

See U426 here Mine is marked to Roby and otherwise identical

ARIZONA SWORDS

So it's not really a matter of photographic evidence but any evidence whatsoever. Morgan Freeman being awarded a sword in 'Glory' doesn't count.

View attachment 500598

Beautiful pictures and because of them I´m gonna let the inflammatory tone of quotes like ¨Have you ever sat with all the Brady battlefield photography? Are you familiar with his work? If you are expecting speculation to prove anything, you might as well run for office¨ go with just a little ¨Lighten up, Francis.¨ response. None of those musicians in the first picture are wearing swords. True enough. They´re all wearing sashes, which was never part of the prescribed uniform, so we´re back to the issue of pictures don´t tell the whole story. I´ve been around the sun enough times not to use Hollywood as evidence, so let´s get that out of the way too.
Truth is, it´s been a long time. Everyone who was there is dead and we´re left with the very small pool of the evidence they left behind.

 

[Glen_C]

Truth is, it´s been a long time. Everyone who was there is dead and we´re left with the very small pool of the evidence they left behind.

Well then, can you please list the regulation army and marine musicians prescribed uniform regulations?

american civil war musicians - Google Search

 

[Glen_C]

Here is one to read. Not one mention of swords.

More Than A Drummer Boy's War: A Historical View of Musicians in the American Civil War - College Music Symposium

More Than A Drummer Boy's War: A Historical View of Musicians in the American Civil War

symposium.music.org

 

[Old Soldier]

The total edged weapon (including by bayonet) wounds/casualties in said to be less than 1%.

We had another thread on that question too and the answer came back that those were the only RECORDED WOUNDS. The bayonet was - at that time - a pretty lethal weapon and tended to kill rather than wound. No one mentions the number of dead solders who were killed - or finished off - with the bayonet.