Mounted artillery saber question

[JackADriscoll]

That big curved sword is probably my favorite edged weapon of the war but are there any stories of crews using them for anything?

 

[RedRover]

They looked pretty cool on the occasional parade...

Otherwise seemed to prefer employing them in storage while drilling, campaigning, etc.

 

[James Brenner]

John Tidball called the artillery saber useless, cumbersome, and superfluous. "With such qualities it soon became relegated to innocuous disuse, not, however, by any form of official order, but by simple disappearance. On the march, it soon found its way, with other trash of its kind, to the caissons or carriages of the pieces, until such time as it could be brought before a duly authorized inspector for formal condemnation, where broken battered, and rusty to be 'dropped' from property returns of the battery; or, more frequently, it was eliminated from the returns, by the remark, 'lost in service'." John C. Tidball, The Artillery Service of the War of the Rebellion 1861-1865, Lawrence Kaplan, ed., (Yardley, PD: Westholme, 2011), 395-6.

 

[Rhett Butler]

A bit of a long story so please bear with me. Although a UK citizen my interest in the Civil War has been lifelong and intense. I struck up a lifelong friendship with a Professor Frederic Lee who was teaching economics here. He soon picked up in my interest in the War. A couple of years into our friendship he mentioned that he had in his past a relative who fought in the conflict on the Union side. This gentleman was Captain Byron Paddock battery F 1st Michigan Light Artillery. The captain had joined as an enlisted man and through merit was made an officer. His battery was with Sherman and was engaged in the Atlanta campaign. Captain Paddock had a sabre and it is a family heirloom and was held by Frederic's father. On the death of his father the sabre passed to Fred and he had it shipped over to England. He did of course show me the sabre and allowed me to keep it for a week so Icould some of my friends a real Civil War weapon. Captain Paddock also kept a fairly detailed journal which was unpublished. I read a typed copy and if memory serves there is a brief mention of the sabre but not in the context of any combat (indeed if artillery crew are engaged in hand to hand combat something has gone badly wrong!) I examined the sabre thoroughly- it is worn and did need a proper restoration but that was not fo me to say. I was just so delighted to actually see and touch the sabre. Fred and his family returned to the US in 2000. I kept in regular touch and we regularly visited each other. Sadly Frederic died in 2014. I wanted to mark our friendship with some kind memoriam- I thought about Captain Paddock (of whom Fred was proud) and had the idea to use a facility provided by Pamplin Park nr Petersburg Virginia. The visitor centre has a wall of remembrance where a plaque can be attached acknowledging a civil war relative. So I had Captain Paddocks name put on the plaque and added that this was in remembrance of Frederic Lee. The sabre? That now resides with the Lee family in St Louis.

 

[FrenchButternut]

They looked pretty cool on the occasional parade...

View attachment 557186



Otherwise seemed to prefer employing them in storage while drilling, campaigning, etc.

View attachment 557188

View attachment 557189

is there anything cooler looking than mounted artillery?

 

[RedRover]

is there anything cooler looking than mounted artillery?

Another image...

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I seem to recall, a mention in Detailed Minutiae of a Soldier in the Army of Northern Virginia, of artillerymen deciding they didn't need sabers and them being left to the cavalry.

I need to re-read that one maybe.

 

[Rhea Cole]

For those who are unfamiliar with artillery sabers & swords.

In this illustration the officer carries a light artillery saber & the sergeant has an an 1832 model artillery sword hanging from his belt. The white gaiters, brass shoulder scales, white traps & artillery sword are examples of garrison / militia gee-gaws that did not survive the first wartime field service.


Light Artillery Saber

Link to detailed photos & description;

AMES M1840 LIGHT ARTILLERY SABER / SCABBARD, DATED 1864 — Horse Soldier

Artillery Sword

The Model 1832 Artillery Sword is a copy of the Napoleonic era blade. It looks like a Roman Gladius. However, that is where the similarities end.

The thick heavy wrist busting blade with a cast brass handle / guard is actually a machete. It was made for chopping brush, not people.

I have one & can testify to the fact that nobody would willingly have it hanging on their belt if they could avoid it. The thing is clunky in the extreme. They disappear from photos very quickly.

 

[Dan Kohli]

I'll have to find the stories, but I remember reading a few things about artillery batteries cutting their way out of a bind.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I'll have to find the stores, but I remember reading a few things about artillery batteries cutting their way out of a bind.

Do please post the citations. That would be a very remarkable thing to save into my artillery folder.

 

[Dan Kohli]

Do please post the citations. That would be a very remarkable thing to save into my artillery folder.

I will try.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I will try.

Thanx.

 

[Dan Kohli]

Thanx.

I do believe that there's at least one in this book. I'm currently forgetting which battery of the artillery regiments was the one involved.

The Army of the United States

books.google.com

 

[Rhea Cole]

I do believe that there's at least one in this book. I'm currently forgetting which battery of the artillery regiments was the one involved.

The Army of the United States

books.google.com

That narrows it down to only 1,000 pages or so.

 

[James Brenner]

I, too, would like to see at least one citation that doesn't include words like likely, probably, or possibly. For several reasons (misuse of gov't property, availability of fascine knives and other pioneer tools, etc.), I am having trouble accepting the fact that the foot artillery sword was used to cut brush. It's possible, but ...

It's unfortunate that Thillman in Civil War Army Swords (p.37), asserts without reference that "the sword blade provided a useful weapon and campaign tool". Without details, the statement not only begs the questions of where, when, and by whom, but also perpetuates what may be a falsehood.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I, too, would like to see at least one citation that doesn't include words like likely, probably, or possibly. For several reasons (misuse of gov't property, availability of fascine knives and other pioneer tools, etc.), I am having trouble accepting the fact that the foot artillery sword was used to cut brush. It's possible, but ...

It's unfortunate that Thillman in Civil War Army Swords (p.37), asserts without reference that "the sword blade provided a useful weapon and campaign tool". Without details, the statement not only begs the questions of where, when, and by whom, but also perpetuates what may be a falsehood.

At Franklin, an abbitis of felled sweet gum trees, every limb & twig festooned with long shining black needle sharp spikes lined the road below the Carter House. The gravel pathway marks the position of the Union earthworks.

The commander of a battery of 12 pound Napoleons ordered his men to, " Load with dummies! " [ socks filled with Minnie balls ] A powder charge, solid shot, two canister & cram dummies to the muzzle were rammed home by #1.

Officers flailed at the bristling tangle with their sabers. Men frantically attempted to clear a path. A crazed horse crashed into the tangle, opening a pathway.

The desperate officers frantically chopped their way through, men crowded together behind them…

In his report the battery commander stated that he distinctly heard "… the report followed by the sound of the bones."

Have no doubt, sabers were utilized as machetes on countless occasions.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

That big curved sword is probably my favorite edged weapon of the war but are there any stories of crews using them for anything?

Sometimes they used the swords to chop down dry weeds near their guns, so that a fire was not started when they went into action.

 

[Rhea Cole]

LOC

Signalists were issued sabers & pistols. Both were of little or no use, except when a telescope rest was needed.

Looking through a glass the "Spy" would call out the ones & two's to the "scribe" who would then pass the message onto the officer.

By regulation, the officer would be in defilade & at night under the cover of a tarp so as not to show a light. Only he had access to the cyphers.

In a "station of observation" the spy would observe Confederate signals. The scribe would write down the "contrabands," as intercepted message were called, & pass them onto code cracking teams.

"From Kennesaw Station, Send a wagon for General Polk." was the contraband that alerted the Yankees to Polk's death.

Observed from cover, the contrabands were transcribed with the flag man facing both forward & back. It wasn't always clear which way he was facing. Just another challenge for the code crackers.

 

[Trooper "D"]

For those who are unfamiliar with artillery sabers & swords.

View attachment 565902
In this illustration the officer carries a light artillery saber & the sergeant has an an 1832 model artillery sword hanging from his belt. The white gaiters, brass shoulder scales, white traps & artillery sword are examples of garrison / militia gee-gaws that did not survive the first wartime field service.


Light Artillery Saber

View attachment 565900
Link to detailed photos & description;

AMES M1840 LIGHT ARTILLERY SABER / SCABBARD, DATED 1864 — Horse Soldier

Artillery Sword
View attachment 565901
The Model 1832 Artillery Sword is a copy of the Napoleonic era blade. It looks like a Roman Gladius. However, that is where the similarities end.

The thick heavy wrist busting blade with a cast brass handle / guard is actually a machete. It was made for chopping brush, not people.

I have one & can testify to the fact that nobody would willingly have it hanging on their belt if they could avoid it. The thing is clunky in the extreme. They disappear from photos very quickly.

The Sgt. has the Artillery Sword hanging from the proper leather waist belt. The frog being integral with the belt, hanged from rings incorporated in the belt design. Some Confederate saber belts also used rings that were not sewn and riveted to the belt but were an interruption of the leather belt. I imagine the saber straps hanged from the rings similar to how the Artillery Sword Frog hangs from open rings. Interesting pieces of equipment.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I, too, would like to see at least one citation that doesn't include words like likely, probably, or possibly. For several reasons (misuse of gov't property, availability of fascine knives and other pioneer tools, etc.), I am having trouble accepting the fact that the foot artillery sword was used to cut brush. It's possible, but ...

It's unfortunate that Thillman in Civil War Army Swords (p.37), asserts without reference that "the sword blade provided a useful weapon and campaign tool". Without details, the statement not only begs the questions of where, when, and by whom, but also perpetuates what may be a falsehood.

. The sword is not the saber. Being that the artillery short sword was designed for camp usage, it is not a stretch to think artillery crews used it for that purpose. Who made all those fascines and gabions, and fortification parts that used saplings and smaller trees. With help of axes, men working together could clear fields of fire for the wood reinforced earthworks. And a line of sharpened stakes angled outward with abatis of various sizes trees with the branch ends sharpened and chained together pointing downrange. I don't see sabers taking on all that duty. Hatchets, axes, bowie knives, short swords, and sabers probably all came together when needed to be pressed into service.