Most Overrated General?

[Elennsar]

My $0.02...

Edit: "Like a fine lady at a party, Longstreet was often late in his arrival at the ball. But he always made a sensation and that of delight, when he got in, with the grand old First Corps sweeping behind him as his train." -Pvt. William Dane, CSA

As much as I dislike the idea of "Longstreet the Slow.", I love how this expresses what happened when he showed up. Longstreet may not have been the Confederacy's fastest marcher or most enthusiastic attacker, but he hit like a hammer.

 

[Pat Answer]

What order did Longstreet disobey at Gettysburg?

Yeah, I was going to leave that one with a 'not quite that simple'...

 

[Elennsar]

Yeah, I was going to leave that one with a 'not quite that simple'...

I'm just hoping it isn't referring to "attack at daylight". There's a fine line between harsh criticism of what he actually did, and just making things up.

 

[Pat Answer]

Someone worked out a time-table for the discussions and orders that took place on the morning of July 2, if I could only find it...

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Elensar,
I saw your points on both Generals.
1) As for Grant, I didn't claim that his successes didn't outmatch his failures. What I did say was that Grant made errors that are often overlooked, thus making him the most overrated Union General. He himself regretted the Cold Harbor attack, in which he suffered more than 7000 casualties and Lee less than 1500. Same applies to his assaults at Vicksburg. I wonder, since he once tried and failed to break through the city's defenses, why did he assault for a second time? As I said, Grant not much of a military genius as Lee or Jackson were, but surely he was not an idiot.
2) Longstreet launched the assault on August 30, after delaying for one day. When he assaulted, the golden opportunity for destroying Pope's army had gone. In Gettysburg, he again sulked. Lee ordered him to assault Cemetery Ridge in the morning on July 2, 1863 but he assaulted in early afternoon. Meanwhile, Sickles had advanced his troops to the Wheatfield. I know that Sickles made many mistakes at Gettysburg, but his resistance bought time for Meade to concentrate his troops and stop the momentum of the attack.
Think about it and reply if you want.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Elennsar]

Someone worked out a time-table for the discussions and orders that took place on the morning of July 2, if I could only find it...

If you do, please share it.

I know from what I've read it seems to have taken longer than "necessary", but Lee doesn't seem to have felt Longstreet was falling behind schedule.

 

[Elennsar]

Elensar,
I saw your points on both Generals.
1) As for Grant, I didn't claim that his successes didn't outmatch his failures. What I did say was that Grant made errors that are often overlooked, thus making him the most overrated Union General. He himself regretted the Cold Harbor attack, in which he suffered more than 7000 casualties and Lee less than 1500. Same applies to his assaults at Vicksburg. I wonder, since he once tried and failed to break through the city's defenses, why did he assault for a second time? As I said, Grant not much of a military genius as Lee or Jackson were, but surely he was not an idiot.

1a) Grant did not suffer 7,000 casualties for that one attack. See Gordon Rhea's research, for example - it's maybe half that for Grant.

1b) Because he felt that success might be possible with a different approach than the first one? It wouldn't be the first time that had been tried, wouldn't even have become the first time it had worked if it had been successful.

And I'm pretty sure neither of these even qualifies as overlooked.

I have great reservations about the notion of Lee being a superior military genius to Grant, but that's neither here nor there.

2) Longstreet launched the assault on August 30, after delaying for one day. When he assaulted, the golden opportunity for destroying Pope's army had gone. In Gettysburg, he again sulked. Lee ordered him to assault Cemetery Ridge in the morning on July 2, 1863 but he assaulted in early afternoon. Meanwhile, Sickles had advanced his troops to the Wheatfield. I know that Sickles made many mistakes at Gettysburg, but his resistance bought time for Meade to concentrate his troops and stop the momentum of the attack.
Think about it and reply if you want.
Civil War Scholar.

2a) What golden opportunity existed on the 29th that 1st Corps was in a position to exploit?
Preferably with a map or some other clear reference to troop deployments - makes it easier to follow how it would have been used.

2b) I suppose "early morning" is better than "at dawn", but it is still is misrepresenting the situation.

Even if everything had gone off perfectly (and I'm not saying it did - I agree with Sorrel on that), it would have taken some time for 1st Corps to get into position and make the attack. Expecting it to happen before noon is unrealistic.

And Sickles advancing his corps to the Wheatfield did the Union defense far more harm than good. Meade's troops as far as that flank went could have concentrated much better had Sickles remained in position.

 

[CSA Today]

As much as I dislike the idea of "Longstreet the Slow.", I love how this expresses what happened when he showed up. Longstreet may not have been the Confederacy's fastest marcher or most enthusiastic attacker, but he hit like a hammer.

"Bull of the Woods" at Chickamauga.

 

[NedBaldwin]

...since Grant didn't want to stay in D.C. and do the day to day work of his position, he had to have Halleck...

but it wasnt Grant who appointed him Chief of Staff so I wondered how much choice Grant had in the matter.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Dear Elennsar,
I am aware of what Rhea said. Yet, most sources cite it at 7000, including Shelby Foote, Douglas Southall Freeman, E.B. Long and James McPherson. Some say it was even more, since total casualties for the Union throughout the first three days of June, 1864 are just under 13000, while Lee suffered well under one third of that. Rhea, like any other writer, is not perfect while Boonekemper really rewrote history from his mind.
As for Longstreet, while the march his soldiers had to make was not their easiest, they had seen worst. Hood's men especially were the shock troops of the Army of Northern Virginia and had performed their duty under worst circumstances. Having the attack been launched when Lee ordered it, it would have succeeded. Yes, Sickles was wrong in repositioning his men, but admittedly he gained time for Meade at a cruel cost. Having Sickles not redeployed, the element of surprise would have played a major role. This means, the US troops would have been dislodged and Gettysburg a Confederate victory.
Think about it and send me a reply if you want.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[rbasin]

"Bull of the Woods" at Chickamauga.

Imagine Longstreet versus Thomas. Everyone would have gone home, and they'd still be getting ready.

 

[rbasin]

but it wasnt Grant who appointed him Chief of Staff so I wondered how much choice Grant had in the matter.

But, if Grant wanted to be in the field, who else was there to handle Lincoln, Stanton, et al.? Grant once mentioned Canby when he wanted Halleck to go to the Trans Mississippi. While I like Canby, he, nor anyone else, had the experience to do the job. By this time, I imagine Grant could have had whom he wanted

 

[rbasin]

My choice, I think is A.S. Johnston. But I have a couple of others that may be contending, in no order:

1. Buckner
2. Beauregard
3. DH Hill
4. McPherson
5. Schofield
6. Sedgewick

Actually, I guess I had them in my head in alphabetical order.

 

[NedBaldwin]

... Grant once mentioned Canby when he wanted Halleck to go to the Trans Mississippi. ....

Which suggests Grant didnt see Halleck as the only choice for DC nor that it Grant keeping Halleck there.

By this time, I imagine Grant could have had whom he wanted

In the spring of 1864 Grant has some challenges selecting who he wanted.

 

[rbasin]

Not for nothing, but Windows 8 has yet again given me a wonderful surprise. I was on Ohio St's site for the O.R. and I was and am using the metro IE. If you get into a volume, then look just to the right of the address bar on the bottom for the read button, you can scroll through the volume left to right with the scroll on your mouse.

I love Windows 8!

 

[rbasin]

Which suggests Grant didnt see Halleck as the only choice for DC nor that it Grant keeping Halleck there.


In the spring of 1864 Grant has some challenges selecting who he wanted.

Politically, yes, but Halleck had, according to Lincoln, no friends, so who would have stopped Grant?

 

[NedBaldwin]

Politically, yes, but Halleck had, according to Lincoln, no friends, so who would have stopped Grant?

Depends on who Grant asked to replace Halleck. But regardless, you have agreed that Grant could not easily have whoever he wanted, which was my point. I think that by claiming that Grant had discretion over selecting and keeping Halleck, it assumes too much of a role for Grant and not enough for Stanton/Lincoln, the people who put Halleck where he was.

 

[John Davison]

General Mills. Those new Cherrios Suck!!!

 

[rbasin]

General Mills. Those new Cherrios Suck!!!

My dad worked for the big G for 38 years, I think. He helped to slightly change the shape of Cheerios so they didn't get soaked with milk too fast back in the mid 70s. He brought cartons of it home. Had to eat those D$%n things. Taste like dirt

 

[rbasin]

Depends on who Grant asked to replace Halleck. But regardless, you have agreed that Grant could not easily have whoever he wanted, which was my point. I think that by claiming that Grant had discretion over selecting and keeping Halleck, it assumes too much of a role for Grant and not enough for Stanton/Lincoln, the people who put Halleck where he was.

I disagree. But we could fight this out all summer and not get any where