Recent Find Model 1836 Waters Flintlock Pistol

[bobinwmass]

I know a bit earlier than the ACW, and most used in the war were likely converted to percussion, but I wanted one in original flintlock. This one is supposed to be all original except for a modern replacement frizzen spring.

 

[bobinwmass]

Also picked up an old set of pommel holsters to display it with. Missing the leather covers but I like the look as you can see the five cartridge tubes attached to each holster. Was interesting to find remnants of cartridge wrapping paper in several of the tubes, looks like made from an old newspaper like Harper's Weekly.

 

[Miker91]

A few months ago I bought the Model 1816 flintlock by Simeon North. I have a question but don't know the correct terminology. Regarding the screw that tightens the jaws for the flint, there is a hole at the top of it. Was there a special device used to put through the hole to tighten the flint ?

Hope this is understandable. Thanks for your help !

 

[bobinwmass]

A few months ago I bought the Model 1816 flintlock by Simeon North. I have a question but don't know the correct terminology. Regarding the screw that tightens the jaws for the flint, there is a hole at the top of it. Was there a special device used to put through the hole to tighten the flint ?

Hope this is understandable. Thanks for your help !

I'm not very familiar with flintlocks overall and thought any little metal bar that fit could be used to tighten the top jaw screw. In my limited experience I've not seen any specific tool issued for use with these pistols. But in researching your question I found this apparently used with some rifles.
https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-antique-five-function-flintlock-musket-combination-tool

 

[Miker91]

I'm not very familiar with flintlocks overall and thought any little metal bar that fit could be used to tighten the top jaw screw. In my limited experience I've not seen any specific tool issued for use with these pistols. But in researching your question I found this apparently used with some rifles.
https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-antique-five-function-flintlock-musket-combination-tool

An excellent looking tool and seems like it would do the job. Wonder if they were made and sold in the US as well as Europe. Thanks !

 

[Cavalier]

@bobinwmass This one makes my heart skip a beat! And the pommel holsters too! Thanks for the photos.

Do you intend to fire it?

John

 

[bayonet]

A few months ago I bought the Model 1816 flintlock by Simeon North. I have a question but don't know the correct terminology. Regarding the screw that tightens the jaws for the flint, there is a hole at the top of it. Was there a special device used to put through the hole to tighten the flint ?

Hope this is understandable. Thanks for your help !

With that Jaw Screw there were 2 ways to do it. There were numerous shaped tools designed to do it. Whoa to the Soldier who did not have one since flints could crack and become worthless (a good Soldier carried several flints). You could loosen the screw by the slot on top just like a screwdriver or insert your tool in the screw hole and twist the screw loose then tighten it. Some jaw screws had only way to do it, the hole or the slot. Some had both as in yours. Both my Charleville ARW pistol & Musket have both.

 

[bobinwmass]

@bobinwmass This one makes my heart skip a beat! And the pommel holsters too! Thanks for the photos.

Do you intend to fire it?

John

I don't plan on firing it. I was specifically looking for this Model to complement my National Lancers display as would have been the firearm they carried around 1845. I have their jacket and hat from that period, as well as the Model 1833 Dragoon saber and then Model 1840 Cavalry saber they would have used, both of those with "MS" Massachusetts markings.

Would have loved to find a pistol with the "MS" markings also, but apparently few and far between. Saw one once years ago, but didn't have the funds to buy it then. But there's room for one more pistol in that pommel holster, so I'll keep looking for an "MS" one, even if that one is converted to percussion. Saw one of those once also but was very ratty.
Years ago on Ebay, before I bought the jacket that started this part of the collection, I saw offered what was listed as a spear or pike head with "N P Ames" markings. How I now wish I had bought that, as Ames made the Lancer's swords, and now I believe that was likely a lance tip for them. How great that would look on a pole with a red pennant attached. If anyone has or ever sees one for sale, please let me know.

 

[Cavalier]

@bobinwmass I love your National Lancers display!

I agree, a lance with it's pennant would really add something to your already impressive display.

John

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I don't plan on firing it. I was specifically looking for this Model to complement my National Lancers display as would have been the firearm they carried around 1845. I have their jacket and hat from that period, as well as the Model 1833 Dragoon saber and then Model 1840 Cavalry saber they would have used, both of those with "MS" Massachusetts markings.
View attachment 436481

Would have loved to find a pistol with the "MS" markings also, but apparently few and far between. Saw one once years ago, but didn't have the funds to buy it then. But there's room for one more pistol in that pommel holster, so I'll keep looking for an "MS" one, even if that one is converted to percussion. Saw one of those once also but was very ratty.
Years ago on Ebay, before I bought the jacket that started this part of the collection, I saw offered what was listed as a spear or pike head with "N P Ames" markings. How I now wish I had bought that, as Ames made the Lancer's swords, and now I believe that was likely a lance tip for them. How great that would look on a pole with a red pennant attached. If anyone has or ever sees one for sale, please let me know.

Great looking display.

Shooting a flintlock causes at least three steps:

1. pull trigger, causing flint to ignite powder in the pan, making WHOOSH

2. power in barrel ignites, causing a BOOM

3. Smoke from steps one and two causes user to cough.

 

[bobinwmass]

When I first posted this thread over a year ago I mentioned that I had been looking for a "MS" marked Model 1836 pistol for years to go with my National Lancers display. They are apparently few and far between, and with the Lancers being the only cavalry company in the Massachusetts Militia from their founding in 1836 through the 1840's, I'm fairly confident any 1836 pistol with the Massachusetts markings was likely used by them. With 100 men in the company, 2 pistols per trooper, there are likely only around 200 or so with the "MS" markings. This one, converted to percussion, was in the recent Cowan's auction. The lock plate has nice markings, but someone did a lot of buffing around the breech and bolster to remove rust/pitting, and the wood has been heavily sanded so only the outlines of the cartouches are visible, but you can still see the "MS" marking between the cartouches. Since beggars can't be choosers, I decided to bid, not really expecting to get it as I have never won a firearm I've bid on in an online auction. They have always gone way higher than the reserve estimates to someone willing to spend a lot more money than me. Lo and behold, it did not exceed the reserve estimates and I got it for a less than my high bid. Here it is with a little Kramer's best applied..

Whole waiting for the auction to end, I decided to do my monthly search on Guns International for an MS" pistol and found this Model 1842 by Aston. It has very nice markings and was better and $1000 less than an obviously refinished marked Aston I saw a few months ago, and not really expecting to win the Cowans auction, I jumped on this one, and so ended up buying two "MS" marked pistols in the same day. This could have been used by the Lancers when they turned in their flintlock pistols, but it also could have been used by any of the several other cavalry companies that were organized into the Massachusetts Volunteer Militia in the early 1850's. It has strong cartouches of "WN" and "WAT", and subinspector initials on many parts, including "JH" on barrel flat and near one of the cartouches.

So here's how the pistol display box looks now.

 

[Cavalier]

My very favorite hand gun in either flint or percussion. Congratulations and thanks very much for the photos. I love your display box too!

John

 

[Bud1863]

Awesome display. Thanks for sharing your successes!

 

[JimW]

I believe there is a similar tool to the one below for the pistols listed in the "Gun Tools and their Identification" book

 

[bayonet]

Always said auctions are sometimes the best place to get stuff cheap. I just won a Rev War sword at half the expected price estimate and I guess I was the only bidder. 1 out of 50 (or less) bid low and bam it happens!