Grant Mac and Grant

[shooter too]

The city was a lot smaller, and Camp Dennison, which is where Grant said he was going to visit, was about 17 miles outside of the then city. McClellan's HQ was in the city proper. If we take Grant's intentions at face value, he intended to visit somewhere 17 miles away from McClellan's HQ.

Doubtful.

And I eagerly await some form of sourcing on your part. Downtown Cincy is just across the river from Covington why would anyone ride 17 miles to Camp Dennison, when it was largely and almost entirely known where Mac had his Headquarters? I used to live there, also in Montgomery, close to Remington, you will have to do better.

 

[67th Tigers]

Doubtful.

And I eagerly await some form of sourcing on your part. Downtown Cincy is just across the river from Covington why would anyone ride 17 miles to Camp Dennison, when it was largely and almost entirely known where Mac had his Headquarters? I used to live there, also in Montgomery, close to Remington, you will have to do better.

I have no idea, but Camp Dennison is where Grant said he was going. Do you think Grant was mistaken?

 

[JerryD]

Grant had obtained a one week leave of absence to visit his parents at Covington, KY. He was required to report back for duty on the 15th. On 10th June he wrote, from Covington, that he intended to visit Camp Dennison the next day. Camp Dennison is ca. 17 miles NE of Cinncinati, which is where McClellan's HQ was. If we take Grant at his word, he simply went to the wrong place.

And this is germane how? Are you alleging that he never made it to McClellan's headquarters and spent two days in the wrong office, and no one told him of his mistake?

 

[GwilymT]

To be fair, McClellan was not at his HQ, but was actually visiting Grant's duty station!

Grant had already turned down a captaincy in the 11th Illinois. Raised in his hometown, Grant tried to get the colonelcy, but was not selected. Grant then went to Cincinnati to visit McClellan to ask for a staff job. At the time, McClellan was with Governor Yates at Camp Yates (Grant's duty station) inspecting the 21st Illinois. The colonel was incompetent, and off the back of that inspection Grant was given the colonelcy by Yates, probably on the advice of McClellan.

Is there any evidence that McClellan had anything to do with Grant's colonelcy? I've never heard that claim before.

 

[trice]

Grant had obtained a one week leave of absence to visit his parents at Covington, KY. He was required to report back for duty on the 15th. On 10th June he wrote, from Covington, that he intended to visit Camp Dennison the next day. Camp Dennison is ca. 17 miles NE of Cinncinati, which is where McClellan's HQ was. If we take Grant at his word, he simply went to the wrong place.

Certainly possible that he did -- but so what? You are saying that there is an experienced West Point and Regular Army officer sitting in McClellan's HQ -- and McClellan's staff does nothing about it.

That same Spring, McClellan is trying to poach experienced officers as they pass through his department -- and being told by the general-in-chief to knock it off, and having his constant requests for more trained officers turned down by that same general-in-chief, who points out that there is a shortage of trained officers and McClellan must accept the allotment he gets.

So here we have a trained officer sitting and waiting in McClellan's HQ. What does his staff do? Nothing. Who is responsible for what his staff does? McClellan.

 

[trice]

Is there any evidence that McClellan had anything to do with Grant's colonelcy? I've never heard that claim before.

Many years later, McClellan implied that he did.

 

[Belfoured]

And this is germane how? Are you alleging that he never made it to McClellan's headquarters and spent two days in the wrong office, and no one told him of his mistake?

It's not germane. It's just another misleading rabbit hole.

The suggestion stated in an earlier post that Grant was given command of the 21st Illinois by Yates based on a "recommendation" by McClellan is fiction. On May 8, 1861, Illinois Assistant Adjutant General John B. Wyman issued a general order to Grant. Wyman ordered Grant to go to eastern and southern Illinois to organize three infantry regiments in what then comprised the Seventh, Eighth and Ninth Congressional districts. Grant mustered in the 7th District Regiment as a state unit in May. Subsequently the junior officers of the 7th (led by Capt. Edward Harland and Lt. Joseph Vance) became convinced that the regiment's CO, Col. Simon Goode, was incompetent and a drunkard. While Vance initially approached Grant, and Harland did as well, he told them he didn't have the authority to get Goode removed. Ultimately they demanded, and got, a meeting with Yates in which they impressed on him their concerns and requested that Goode be replaced with the guy who had mustered them into state service. Yates agreed and on June 17 he named Grant colonel of what would now be the 21st Illinois in federal service. The regiment was officially mustered into federal service on June 28 at Springfield.

 

[Belfoured]

Certainly possible that he did -- but so what? You are saying that there is an experienced West Point and Regular Army officer sitting in McClellan's HQ -- and McClellan's staff does nothing about it.

That same Spring, McClellan is trying to poach experienced officers as they pass through his department -- and being told by the general-in-chief to knock it off, and having his constant requests for more trained officers turned down by that same general-in-chief, who points out that there is a shortage of trained officers and McClellan must accept the allotment he gets.

So here we have a trained officer sitting and waiting in McClellan's HQ. What does his staff do? Nothing. Who is responsible for what his staff does? McClellan.

In fact the staff officer may have been Seth Williams. It appears that Williams could actually do nothing because McClellan simply ignored the fact that Grant had shown up and had asked to see him. It wouldn't be the last time that McClellan pulled this stunt. It sounds an awful lot like the incident in December 1861 when the POTUS had come to McClellan's residence to see him and when McClellan arrived he simply went upstairs to bed. As usual, we're responding to a lot of silly and counterintuitive speculation.

 

[James N.]

McClellan seems to have claimed that a few years later. It doesn't seem very likely to be true.

... McClellan's claim just does not fit in the timeline. He was in Cincinnati when Grant was there, not off in Springfield with Governor Yates. When McClellan was in Springfield with Yates, Grant had already been given the colonelcy. Possibly, Yates brought Grant up with McClellan -- he had already asked several other people about it. In general, McClellan's account given years later leaks like a sieve and looks like CYA activity.

To me it seems fishy - assuming Mac's version to be true - that NOBODY at his headquarters bothered to inform Grant that McClellan wasn't there or where he actually was. If true, it at the very least smacks of gross incompetence on the part of the staff. On the other hand, it's equally hard to believe a guy as smart as Grant wouldn't quickly have devined on his own whether or not his quarry was there.

 

[James N.]

Is there any evidence that McClellan had anything to do with Grant's colonelcy? I've never heard that claim before.

This sounds questionable to me too - correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Illinois within Halleck's sphere, or had that not happened yet?

 

[trice]

To me it seems fishy that - assuming Mac's version to be true - that NOBODY at his headquarters bothered to inform Grant that McClellan wasn't there. If true, it at the very least smacks of gross incompetence on the part of the staff. On the other hand, it's equally hard to believe a guy as smart as Grant wouldn't quickly have devined on his own whether or not his quarry was there.

I am sure Grant understood what was being signaled.

Grant was staying in Covington, on the other side of the river from Cincinnati. He probably travelled right through Cincinnati on his way to McClellan's HQ and back, two days in a row. If McClellan was in downtown Cincinnati and the staff wanted Grant to meet him, all they had to do was tell Grant where he was. Grant could have stopped to see him on the way home. McClellan or his staff could have sent a message to Grant in Covington, telling him to meet McClellan in downtown Cincinnati on the second day -- if they wanted to do so.

Having received the signal, Grant started back to Illinois. He had stopped to see Joseph Reynolds in Lafayette, IN -- which is where the telegram from Governor Yates caught up with him. Grant telegraphed his response to Yates on the 14th from Lafayette.

 

[trice]

This sounds questionable to me too - correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Illinois within Halleck's sphere, or had that not happened yet?

Grant's appointment to be colonel was to the Seventh District Regiment (later called the 21st Illinois). This is a state regiment, not a Federal one. The appointment is from the Governor of Illinois. Neither Halleck nor McClellan could have made it.

 

[Belfoured]

I am sure Grant understood what was being signaled.

Grant was staying in Covington, on the other side of the river from Cincinnati. He probably travelled right through Cincinnati on his way to McClellan's HQ and back, two days in a row. If McClellan was in downtown Cincinnati and the staff wanted Grant to meet him, all they had to do was tell Grant where he was. Grant could have stopped to see him on the way home. McClellan or his staff could have sent a message to Grant in Covington, telling him to meet McClellan in downtown Cincinnati on the second day -- if they wanted to do so.

Having received the signal, Grant started back to Illinois. He had stopped to see Joseph Reynolds in Lafayette, IN -- which is where the telegram from Governor Yates caught up with him. Grant telegraphed his response to Yates on the 14th from Lafayette.

The suggestion that Grant spent two days in the wrong place and failed to tell anybody why he was there, or that they didn't tell him he was in the wrong place, is a new level of rejecting common sense. Moreover, if - as seems to be the case - the staff officer Grant encountered was the competent Seth Williams, the suggestion becomes even more absurd.

 

[Belfoured]

This sounds questionable to me too - correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Illinois within Halleck's sphere, or had that not happened yet?

Another problem is that in his Memoirs Grant says that in April Pope had offered to Grant that he would use his political connections to secure a position but Grant rejected it because he wanted a position based on his own qualifications. I haven't seen anything disproving that, so it's yet another reason to conclude that the suggestion of McClellan's role is without any merit.

 

[trice]

Another problem is that in his Memoirs Grant says that in April Pope had offered to Grant that he would use his political connections to secure a position but Grant rejected it because he wanted a position based on his own qualifications. I haven't seen anything disproving that, so it's yet another reason to conclude that the suggestion of McClellan's role is without any merit.

From Grant's Personal Memoirs, apparently this is about May 22, 1861:

Brigadier-General John Pope was stationed at Springfield, as United States mustering officer, all the time I was in the State service. He was a native of Illinois and well acquainted with most of the prominent men in the State. I was a carpet-bagger and knew but few of them. While I was on duty at Springfield the senators, representatives in Congress, ax-governors and the State legislators were nearly all at the State capital. The only acquaintance I made among them was with the governor, whom I was serving, and, by chance, with Senator S. A. Douglas. The only members of Congress I knew were Washburne and Philip Foulk. With the former, though he represented my district and we were citizens of the same town, I only became acquainted at the meeting when the first company of Galena volunteers was raised. Foulk I had known in St. Louis when I was a citizen of that city. I had been three years at West Point with Pope and had served with him a short time during the Mexican war, under General Taylor. I saw a good deal of him during my service with the State. On one occasion he said to me that I ought to go into the United States service. I told him I intended to do so if there was a war. He spoke of his acquaintance with the public men of the State, and said he could get them to recommend me for a position and that he would do all he could for me. I declined to receive endorsement for permission to fight for my country.​

Grant did benefit from Pope in another way. From Ulysses S. Grant, 1861-1864: His Rise from Obscurity to Military Greatness By William Farina · 2007

 

[GwilymT]

This sounds questionable to me too - correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Illinois within Halleck's sphere, or had that not happened yet?

Agreed, and that's why I found the claim of @67th Tigers that it was McClellan's advice that got Grant his regiment as absurd. I don't think there is any evidence to back up that claim. Doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[Belfoured]

Agreed, and that's why I found the claim of @67th Tigers that it was McClellan's advice that got Grant his regiment as absurd. I don't think there is any evidence to back up that claim. Doesn't pass the smell test.

In fact - as pointed out above - that is clearly not how he got the appointment. It was the result of the junior officers of the regiment meeting with Yates and telling him they wanted the CO out and Grant - who had mustered them in during May - to replace him.

 

[Reconstructed Rebel]

Recollections of seventy years : Chetlain, Augustus L. (Augustus Louis), 1824-1914 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Book, cloth, frontispiece

archive.org

Not sure if this adds any new information but it is another source.

Grant's trials and tribulations in getting a command are covered in Chapter 5. Below are a few quotes in italics. General Chetlain writes of his personal interactions with Grant and mentions that Grant said:

"I don't think I am conceited, but I feel confident I could command a regiment well; at least, I would like to try it." When alluding to his old army friend, Captain George B. McClellan, who had just been placed in charge of the organization of the volunteers in the state of Ohio, he said: "Of the many officers of the regular army who are receiving appointments in the volunteer service, I look upon Captain McClellan as one of the brightest, and I think he is sure to make his mark in this war."

.......After leaving Caseyville Captain Grant returned to Springfield, and on being informed that there was no further work for him to do as a mustering officer, he went back to Galena. He was restless, and felt humiliated that he should be compelled to remain inactive, when there was so great need in the country of the services of educated and experienced military men. Unable longer to endure this inaction, he went to Ohio to ascertain what could be done in his native state. He stopped at Columbus to see Gen. McClellan, who had just been made a general of volunteers, hoping he might from him get a staff appointment, but McClellan had gone to Washington. After visiting his mother at Covington, Ky., he returned to Galena, and as a last resort wrote the adjutant general of the United States army at Washington, offering his services and soliciting an appointment as colonel of a volunteer regiment. No reply was made to his letter.

About the 10th of June he received a telegram from Governor Yates asking if he would accept the colonelcy of the Twenty -first Illinois infantry, known as the Mattoon regiment, which he had organized and mustered into the state service the month before. He, of course, accepted the position offered. It seems that this piece of good luck came to the captain in this wise. The Mattoon regiment had been unfortunate in its choice of a colonel for the thirty days' service, who became unpopular with both officers and enlisted men before the expiration of that time, and a change was desired by all. The officers, who had made the acquaintance of Captain Grant as mustering officer, believed him to be a good man for the position and petitioned Governor Yates to appoint him colonel of the regiment. The governor hesitated, for he clearly was not partial to Captain Grant, but the Hon. Jesse K. Dubois, the state auditor, who happened to be in the governor's room when the petition was received, spoke in such high terms of the "Galena Captain," as the governor called him, and of his fitness for the position, that it turned the scales and the appointment was made.