Grant Mac and Grant

[MikeyB]

Just curious, did these guys ever interact during or after the war? I believe they overlapped at West Point?

Any record of what they thought of each other?

 

[Reconstructed Rebel]

I like this question! Here's a thread I found that has a bit of info on it.

Grant - Grant and McClellan in Oregon Territory? | Famous People of the Late Unpleasantness

Am reading Sears bio on McClellan, and Sears makes a statement that when McClellan was chosen to plot a possible path for the transcontinental railroad through the Cascade Mountains in Oregon Territory, Grant was one of the officers he ran across, and that Grant ran off on a drinking spree that...

civilwartalk.com

 

[MikeyB]

I like this question! Here's a thread I found that has a bit of info on it.

Grant - Grant and McClellan in Oregon Territory? | Famous People of the Late Unpleasantness

Am reading Sears bio on McClellan, and Sears makes a statement that when McClellan was chosen to plot a possible path for the transcontinental railroad through the Cascade Mountains in Oregon Territory, Grant was one of the officers he ran across, and that Grant ran off on a drinking spree that...

civilwartalk.com

thank you!

 

[trice]

Just curious, did these guys ever interact during or after the war? I believe they overlapped at West Point?

Any record of what they thought of each other?

• Grant was Class of 1843 at West Point (#21 of 39, 21 serving as officers in the Civil War).
• McClellan was Class of 1846 (#2 of 58, 33 serving as officers in the Civil War)
• Grant would have been a Firstie (a senior) in McClellan's Plebe (freshman) year at West Point. There might have been 200-250 Cadets in the academy that year, so they certainly knew each other by sight and name, I never heard they were particular acquaintances while there.
• McClellan and Grant were both in Scott's army during the War with Mexico
• At the start of the Civil War, Grant thought the three great soldiers for the Union would likely be McClellan, Buell and Rosecrans.
  • All three of those were at West Point while Grant was there.
  • Buell was Class of 1841 (#32 of 52). He served with the armies of Taylor and Scott in the War with Mexico, as did Grant
  • Grant and McClellan both served in Scott's army during the War with Mexico
  • Grant and McClellan were both members of the Aztec Club of 1847 (military society formed in Mexico City, October 13, 1847)
  • Rosecrans was class of 1842 (#5 of 56) and was a professor at West Point from 1844-47, so clearly he and McClellan knew one another.
• In May of 1861, Grant stopped by McClellan's HQ, looking for an assignment. He kicked his heels waiting for two days without ever getting to see McClellan, then went back to Ohio Illinois.

 

[James N.]

Just curious, did these guys ever interact during or after the war? I believe they overlapped at West Point?

Any record of what they thought of each other?

McClellan treated Grant quite shabbily in the late Spring of 1861 when the ex-captain came to see him at his Cincinnati, Ohio headquarters. At that time Mac was commanding the Ohio or Western Department and had not yet been called to Washington, and Grant came to see him about getting an assignment. (So far all he'd done for the war was train the regiment from his hometown Galena, Ill. and was looking for something better or with more responsibility.) McClellan may have remembered him from the episode in Oregon mentioned above, but for that or some other reason he never found the time to actually see the man who had come all the way from Illinois for an interview. After fruitlessly cooling his heels for a couple of days the supplicant got the message, gave up, and returned to his home state. This sorry episode might've killed participation in the war to someone with less determination than Grant though he seems never to have complained about it.

 

[Belfoured]

McClellan treated Grant quite shabbily in the late Spring of 1861 when the ex-captain came to see him at his Cincinnati, Ohio headquarters. At that time Mac was commanding the Ohio or Western Department and had not yet been called to Washington, and Grant came to see him about getting an assignment. (So far all he'd done for the war was train the regiment from his hometown Galena, Ill. and was looking for something better or with more responsibility.) McClellan may have remembered him from the episode in Oregon mentioned above, but for that or some other reason he never found the time to actually see the man who had come all the way from Illinois for an interview. After fruitlessly cooling his heels for a couple of days the supplicant got the message, gave up, and returned to his home state. This sorry episode might've killed participation in the war to someone with less determination than Grant though he seems never to have complained about it.

One can only imagine the victimized rants Ellen would have been receiving if the roles were reversed.

 

[trice]

McClellan treated Grant quite shabbily in the late Spring of 1861 when the ex-captain came to see him at his Cincinnati, Ohio headquarters. At that time Mac was commanding the Ohio or Western Department and had not yet been called to Washington, and Grant came to see him about getting an assignment. (So far all he'd done for the war was train the regiment from his hometown Galena, Ill. and was looking for something better or with more responsibility.) McClellan may have remembered him from the episode in Oregon mentioned above, but for that or some other reason he never found the time to actually see the man who had come all the way from Illinois for an interview. After fruitlessly cooling his heels for a couple of days the supplicant got the message, gave up, and returned to his home state. This sorry episode might've killed participation in the war to someone with less determination than Grant though he seems never to have complained about it.

Making this all look really strange, in the Spring of 1861 McClellan was busily trying to grab every West Point/Regular Army officer who passed through is department -- and Scott was telling him that he could not just grab them and he could not have all the ones he wanted. Yet Grant -- an experienced West Point and Regular Army officer -- comes by and no one at McClellan's HQ seems to want him.

 

[jackt62]

Yet Grant -- an experienced West Point and Regular Army officer -- comes by and no one at McClellan's HQ seems to want him.

Grant had a poor reputation among the regular army officers who knew of his career, and the alleged circumstances surrounding his resignation from the army. Rightly or wrongly, that reputation would not have gone over very well with a guy like McClellan, who fancied himself a proper gentleman.

 

[MikeyB]

• Grant was Class of 1843 at West Point (#21 of 39, 21 serving as officers in the Civil War).
• McClellan was Class of 1846 (#2 of 58, 33 serving as officers in the Civil War)
• Grant would have been a Firstie (a senior) in McClellan's Plebe (freshman) year at West Point. There might have been 200-250 Cadets in the academy that year, so they certainly knew each other by sight and name, I never heard they were particular acquaintances while there.
• McClellan and Grant were both in Scott's army during the War with Mexico
• At the start of the Civil War, Grant thought the three great soldiers for the Union would likely be McClellan, Buell and Rosecrans.
  • All three of those were at West Point while Grant was there.
  • Buell was Class of 1841 (#32 of 52). He served with the armies of Taylor and Scott in the War with Mexico, as did Grant
  • Grant and McClellan both served in Scott's army during the War with Mexico
  • Grant and McClellan were both members of the Aztec Club of 1847 (military society formed in Mexico City, October 13, 1847)
  • Rosecrans was class of 1842 (#5 of 56) and was a professor at West Point from 1844-47, so clearly he and McClellan knew one another.
• In May of 1861, Grant stopped by McClellan's HQ, looking for an assignment. He kicked his heels waiting for two days without ever getting to see McClellan, then went back to Ohio Illinois.

thanks for the recap of the West Point history. admittedly, my knowledge that Grant and McClellan overlapped at West Point was based on Grant saving Mac and George Hazard from a tyrannical upperclassmen named Elkanah Bent from Georgia

 

[trice]

thanks for the recap of the West Point history. admittedly, my knowledge that Grant and McClellan overlapped at West Point was based on Grant saving Mac and George Hazard from a tyrannical upperclassmen named Elkanah Bent from Georgia

Elkanah Bent, played in the North and South miniseries by Philip Casnoff, was a real person?

 

[Belfoured]

Grant had a poor reputation among the regular army officers who knew of his career, and the alleged circumstances surrounding his resignation from the army. Rightly or wrongly, that reputation would not have gone over very well with a guy like McClellan, who fancied himself a proper gentleman.

I'm also not certain that McClellan had an "eye for talent" if it wasn't aligned with his political Whig/conservative background, his fondness for "lessons learned" such as those he gleaned on the Delafield Commission, his success in business, and his interest in Jomini/Mahan, etc. An officer like Grant checked none of those boxes, but turned out to be a better hire for what was needed than McClellan or the likes of those he chose such as Porter, Franklin, etc.

 

[jackt62]

I'm also not certain that McClellan had an "eye for talent" if it wasn't aligned with his political Whig/conservative background, his fondness for "lessons learned" such as those he gleaned on the Delafield Commission, his success in business, and his interest in Jomini/Mahan, etc. An officer like Grant checked none of those boxes, but turned out to be a better hire for what was needed than McClellan or the likes of those he chose such as Porter, Franklin, etc.

Yes, excellent points that emphasize McCellan's attachment to like-minded officers, of which Grant most certainly was not.

 

[67th Tigers]

McClellan treated Grant quite shabbily in the late Spring of 1861 when the ex-captain came to see him at his Cincinnati, Ohio headquarters. At that time Mac was commanding the Ohio or Western Department and had not yet been called to Washington, and Grant came to see him about getting an assignment. (So far all he'd done for the war was train the regiment from his hometown Galena, Ill. and was looking for something better or with more responsibility.) McClellan may have remembered him from the episode in Oregon mentioned above, but for that or some other reason he never found the time to actually see the man who had come all the way from Illinois for an interview. After fruitlessly cooling his heels for a couple of days the supplicant got the message, gave up, and returned to his home state. This sorry episode might've killed participation in the war to someone with less determination than Grant though he seems never to have complained about it.

To be fair, McClellan was not at his HQ, but was actually visiting Grant's duty station!

Grant had already turned down a captaincy in the 11th Illinois. Raised in his hometown, Grant tried to get the colonelcy, but was not selected. Grant then went to Cincinnati to visit McClellan to ask for a staff job. At the time, McClellan was with Governor Yates at Camp Yates (Grant's duty station) inspecting the 21st Illinois. The colonel was incompetent, and off the back of that inspection Grant was given the colonelcy by Yates, probably on the advice of McClellan.

 

[ErnieMac]

From McClellan's Own Story (page 47):

I think it was during my absence on this very trip (to Indianapolis) that Grant came to Cincinnati to ask me, as an old acquaintance, to give him employment, or a place on my staff. Marcy or Seth Williams saw him and told him that if he would await my return, doubtless I would do something for him; but before I got back he was telegraphed that he could have a regiment in Illinois, and at once returned thither, so that I did not see him. This was his good luck; for had I been there I would no doubt have given him a place on my staff, and he would probably have remained with me and shared my fate.​

From The Personal Memoirs of U. S. Grant (Vol. 1 page 241):

Having but little to do after the muster of the last of the regiments authorized by the State legislature, I asked and obtained of the governor leave of absence for a week to visit my parents in Covington, Kentucky, immediately opposite Cincinnati. General McClellan had been made a major-general and had his headquarters at Cincinnati. In reality I wanted to see him. I had known him slightly at West Point, where we served one year together, and in the Mexican war. I was in hopes that when he saw me he would offer me a position on his staff. I called on two successive days at his office but failed to see him on either occasion, and returned to Springfield.​

 

[Belfoured]

From McClellan's Own Story (page 47):

I think it was during my absence on this very trip (to Indianapolis) that Grant came to Cincinnati to ask me, as an old acquaintance, to give him employment, or a place on my staff. Marcy or Seth Williams saw him and told him that if he would await my return, doubtless I would do something for him; but before I got back he was telegraphed that he could have a regiment in Illinois, and at once returned thither, so that I did not see him. This was his good luck; for had I been there I would no doubt have given him a place on my staff, and he would probably have remained with me and shared my fate.​

From The Personal Memoirs of U. S. Grant (Vol. 1 page 241):

Having but little to do after the muster of the last of the regiments authorized by the State legislature, I asked and obtained of the governor leave of absence for a week to visit my parents in Covington, Kentucky, immediately opposite Cincinnati. General McClellan had been made a major-general and had his headquarters at Cincinnati. In reality I wanted to see him. I had known him slightly at West Point, where we served one year together, and in the Mexican war. I was in hopes that when he saw me he would offer me a position on his staff. I called on two successive days at his office but failed to see him on either occasion, and returned to Springfield.​

Whether one buys McClellan's claim 20 years later that he would have found a place for Grant on his staff, neither suggests that McClellan had any role in getting Grant his regimental command.

 

[ErnieMac]

McClellan died a little more than three months after Grant and his memoir was published in 1887. Tough to argue when you're dead.

 

[trice]

To be fair, McClellan was not at his HQ, but was actually visiting Grant's duty station!

Grant had already turned down a captaincy in the 11th Illinois. Raised in his hometown, Grant tried to get the colonelcy, but was not selected. Grant then went to Cincinnati to visit McClellan to ask for a staff job. At the time, McClellan was with Governor Yates at Camp Yates (Grant's duty station) inspecting the 21st Illinois. The colonel was incompetent, and off the back of that inspection Grant was given the colonelcy by Yates, probably on the advice of McClellan.

McClellan seems to have claimed that a few years later. It doesn't seem very likely to be true.

Grant had written to his wife that he was going to see McClellan in Cincinnati on June 10th. Grant spent two days kicking his heels in McClellan's HQ with no result, then left. Shortly after that, Grant heads back to Illinois, stopping in Lafayette, IN to visit with Joseph Reynolds (future Brigadier General).

McClellan is still in Cincinnati on June 11th and part of the 12th. There are several messages in the OR sent from Cincinnati by McClellan with those dates. McClellan left Cincinnati for Cairo, IL at some point on June 12th.

McClellan, on the 15th, is in Springfield IL with Governor Yates. They inspect the Seventh District Regiment commanded by Colonel Goode. McClellan reviews that regiment with the Governor and expresses satisfaction with it (which is strange, because the regiment already had a terrible reputation). McClellan is back in Cincinnati sending messages again on the 16th.

A few days before McClellan's visit, the junior officers of the Seventh District Regiment had called on Yates and told him the regiment wanted Colonel Goode replaced. They wanted Grant (who had mustered them in for the Governor in May) as the replacement colonel of the regiment. This was a 90-day regiment the government wanted to re-enlist as a 3-year regiment, so the Governor did not toss them out. The governor conferred with his advisors and eventually got back to the juniors, telling them that Grant would be their new colonel. Yates takes his time about actually issuing the order, which is officially dated the 15th.

A telegram is sent to Grant earlier than that, because Grant responded to it on the 14th. and the commission is sent by US Mail to his home in Galena. The order telegram goes to Grant's father's house in Covington, KY, but Grant was already gone. It catches up with him at Reynolds house in Lafayette. On the 15th, late in the day, Grant stops in Springfield to start the process of straightening out the regiment.

McClellan's claim just does not fit in the timeline. He was in Cincinnati when Grant was there, not off in Springfield with Governor Yates. When McClellan was in Springfield with Yates, Grant had already been given the colonelcy. Possibly, Yates brought Grant up with McClellan -- he had already asked several other people about it. In general, McClellan's account given years later leaks like a sieve and looks like CYA activity.

 

[67th Tigers]

Grant had obtained a one week leave of absence to visit his parents at Covington, KY. He was required to report back for duty on the 15th. On 10th June he wrote, from Covington, that he intended to visit Camp Dennison the next day. Camp Dennison is ca. 17 miles NE of Cinncinati, which is where McClellan's HQ was. If we take Grant at his word, he simply went to the wrong place.

 

[shooter too]

Grant had obtained a one week leave of absence to visit his parents at Covington, KY. He was required to report back for duty on the 15th. On 10th June he wrote, from Covington, that he intended to visit Camp Dennison the next day. Camp Dennison is ca. 17 miles NE of Cinncinati, which is where McClellan's HQ was. If we take Grant at his word, he simply went to the wrong place.

An expert horseman whom was born at Point Pleasant, OH and raised in Georgetown about 25 miles north. I have visited both, and you think he got lost around Cincy? Purely laughable.

btw, it's spelled Cincinnati, a common mistake.

 

[67th Tigers]

An expert horseman whom was born at Point Pleasant, OH and raised in Georgetown about 25 miles north. I have visited both, and you think he got lost around Cincy? Purely laughable.

btw, it's spelled Cincinnati, a common mistake.

The city was a lot smaller, and Camp Dennison, which is where Grant said he was going to visit, was about 17 miles outside of the then city. McClellan's HQ was in the city proper. If we take Grant's intentions at face value, he intended to visit somewhere 17 miles away from McClellan's HQ.