Longstreet

Especially if you werent concerned with the integrity of your line, as you seem to suggest.


Necessarily if you want your line to dominate the good ground south of Gettyburg, as opposed to the low ground.

Once again, lines can be curved.

Yes. Anybody looking from Seminary Ridge would see it with their eyeballs. You've been there, you know full well Emmitsburg Road is prominent and obvious.
picketts-charge-from-seminary-ridge-joshua-house.jpg

Emmitsburg Road from Seminary Ridge

So then you have no evidence that Lee saw anything different from what he was led to believe by Capt. Johnston?


Not to mention the Union artillery was pounding away all day from Cemetery Ridge. That was probably a clue.

What's your source for the Union artillery firing from Cemetery Ridge before Longstreet began his march?


Why in gods name would anyone do that? He couldn't see them so he decided they must be on the low ground between two ridges with their flank in the air?

He had Capt. Johnston's report.

Which, besides being militarily nonsense, would also make McLaws orders to put his division "astride" Emmitsburg Road... odd to say the least. More than half his force would have nothing to shoot at. Same with Hood if he was to follow directly behind as you suggested.

Not at all. being on the reverse slope would mean that any confederates coming straight at them would be highlighted as they crossed the Emmitsburg Road. McLaws and Hood coming up the Emmitsburg Road would then hit them in the flank and be able to wrap around them. You don't think the unengaged troops would simply go straight ahead like unthinking automatons, do you?

They saw them on July 3rd and shelled them for 2 hours straight. Im curious how they possibly didnt see them in the same place at the hour of the day, the day before? Because thats where they were.

So then you have no evidence they were seen on July 2 before Longstreet left on his march?

The idea of intentionally offering your flank and rear to an enemy because you could potentially twist your formation in a knot to counter it is beneath response.

Especially since that's not what I claimed. When you're ready to discuss what I actually said, let me know.

Thats my point, he was going by the process of elimination. But there was many other possibilities... and we know that to be a fact because in reality they were at another possibility, a militarily logical possibility.

No, he was going by the information he was given. Capt. Johnston was a very capable engineering officer, and Lee had no reason to disbelieve him.

Lee based his view on what Johnston didnt see, and used it to base assumptions on what Johnston was not positioned to see one way or the other. And apparently didn't follow up on it. That is straight up negligence if true.

Once again, you would have him send another reconnaissance mission out to verify his first reconnaissance mission?


Remember all those times in the war where the Union artillery stayed under cover out of fear of Confederate artillery... instead of ripping them to shreds? Me neither.

Apparently you've never heard of counterbattery fire. You don't put your artillery batteries where they are sitting ducks.


Sure. By that definition every military commander that ever lived was a success.

Still, we're talking about the plan he made, which was a good plan based on what he knew at the time.


Within the scope of his orders he did. He still had to carry out the spirit of the orders. He couldnt, say, not attack at all. Or disengage his divisions and send them to flank the Round Tops instead of up Emmitsburg Road.

I disagree completely. Longstreet was the commander on scene and he had the authority to make any changes that were necessary based on what he saw when he got there. Of course, he couldn't lie to Lee and say that when he got there the Federals were entrenched all over the place and too strong to attack, but he had full authority to send Hood around the round tops based on the changed situation of finding the Federals there.

Uh, i'd have scouts scouring those position from dawn to dusk, as any commander would.

Not any smart commander, because the more people you have there, the greater the chance of their being seen or even captured, and Lee wanted to use the element of surprise.

I'd certainly have my staff climbing trees and reporting back positions,

Doesn't seem to have been a popular thing to do in the war for anyone.

and be reading the dispatches coming from all the generals already posted on Seminary Ridge looking across at the actual enemy.

They seem to have been busy doing other things like taking care of their troops, making sure their ammunition was ready, etc.


Which is one of the reasons I proposed there is a lot of missing information here. The alternative being Lee relied on a scounting report from 2 officers at 5am in the morning to plan an attack that couldnt have been carried out for many hours against an enemy known to be due to arrive, and visible arriving in large force. Thats not Robert E Lee.

Apparently it is the Robert E. Lee who conducted a reconnaissance of the Mexican positions and came back hours later with the route to victory for Winfield Scott.



He did. He was ordered to attack up Emmetsburg Road as part of a timing operation involving the entire ANV. That being physically impossible, and despite protests of his commanders to break orders completely, Longstreet pushed the enemy off Emmitsburg Road via an en echelon , broke them enough that the next unit in line, Anderson, was actually able to potential roll up the Union force had they had the numbers. Longstreet improvised to save Lee's poor plan and it nearly worked... thanks to Sickles. What else could Longstreet have done to comply with his orders?

He could have sent Hood around Little Round Top after he realized there were troops in the area.


The fact that Longstreet was skilled enough to potentially save his corps from probably the worst possible position a military unit could be in (engaged in its front, struck right and rear by a superior force while being dominated by artillery on open ground from 3 sides). is rather beside the point. Losing the 2 best divisions in the Conferederate army would certainly be a disaster, however you want to quantify it.

You misstate the position he would have been in. Losing parts of two divisions out of nine divisions is not a disaster.


It was a dangerous plan based on negative information, not positive reconnaissance.

It was a bold plan based on what Lee knew at the time.

Longstreet walked out of the woods face first into a strongly posted Union Corp

Strongly posted? In an area too large for the troops available with flanks in the air for two divisions? Okay, if that's what you think.


and his alternatives became crafting a plan of attack so he could cooperate with the rest of the army and obey his orders, not attack at all, or break his orders and go off on his own hook, I suppose flank marching in the face and view of the enemy out of support of the army to 'find' the rest of the Union army and fight them alone.

Well, I'm not a critic of the attack in the Peach Orchard. Longstreet did have the authority to send Hood around LRT, though.
 
Just got back from hearing Dr. Sommers in person at the Hood's Brigade Symposium. Sheesh. Is he a nice guy or what? I was tickled to learn (finally snapped to this...I'm slow) he was one of Dr. Frank Vandiver's students at Rice. :) That made it pretty much like getting to talk to Moses about his experience on the mount. He's a terrific speaker, and I learned some things I can throw in on Petersburg when I teach it....it's not my strongest battle, so this was just a wonderful opportunity. And I scored an autographed copy of the new edition of Petersburg Redeemed.

I'm a very happy camper!
 
Remember that to influence someone you need the respective person's (conscious or unconscious) cooperation. The mouth can't achieve victory when the ear refuses to hear and the brain refuses to process!
Lee was determined, It was one of the few times that his facial expersions and body language showed Longstreet his fustration with his objections. Longstreet had no choice other than to order the attack. There was no changing Lee's mind.
 
Once again, lines can be curved.



So then you have no evidence that Lee saw anything different from what he was led to believe by Capt. Johnston?




What's your source for the Union artillery firing from Cemetery Ridge before Longstreet began his march?




He had Capt. Johnston's report.



Not at all. being on the reverse slope would mean that any confederates coming straight at them would be highlighted as they crossed the Emmitsburg Road. McLaws and Hood coming up the Emmitsburg Road would then hit them in the flank and be able to wrap around them. You don't think the unengaged troops would simply go straight ahead like unthinking automatons, do you?



So then you have no evidence they were seen on July 2 before Longstreet left on his march?



Especially since that's not what I claimed. When you're ready to discuss what I actually said, let me know.



No, he was going by the information he was given. Capt. Johnston was a very capable engineering officer, and Lee had no reason to disbelieve him.



Once again, you would have him send another reconnaissance mission out to verify his first reconnaissance mission?




Apparently you've never heard of counterbattery fire. You don't put your artillery batteries where they are sitting ducks.




Still, we're talking about the plan he made, which was a good plan based on what he knew at the time.




I disagree completely. Longstreet was the commander on scene and he had the authority to make any changes that were necessary based on what he saw when he got there. Of course, he couldn't lie to Lee and say that when he got there the Federals were entrenched all over the place and too strong to attack, but he had full authority to send Hood around the round tops based on the changed situation of finding the Federals there.



Not any smart commander, because the more people you have there, the greater the chance of their being seen or even captured, and Lee wanted to use the element of surprise.



Doesn't seem to have been a popular thing to do in the war for anyone.



They seem to have been busy doing other things like taking care of their troops, making sure their ammunition was ready, etc.




Apparently it is the Robert E. Lee who conducted a reconnaissance of the Mexican positions and came back hours later with the route to victory for Winfield Scott.





He could have sent Hood around Little Round Top after he realized there were troops in the area.




You misstate the position he would have been in. Losing parts of two divisions out of nine divisions is not a disaster.




It was a bold plan based on what Lee knew at the time.



Strongly posted? In an area too large for the troops available with flanks in the air for two divisions? Okay, if that's what you think.




Well, I'm not a critic of the attack in the Peach Orchard. Longstreet did have the authority to send Hood around LRT, though.
All very good points. Johnstons reconnaissance was flawed. This caused delays due to Longstreet being forced to conduct a counter march to avoid detection. Porter Alexander also had to taken measures to avoid detection. Longstreet should have performed his own reconnaissance, but he didn't that was a mistake. Long and short of it is Longstreet did not prepare as well as he normally prepared for battle. He was most likley brooding about an attacked that he was against and allowed it to effect his normal preparation. (Just my Opinion). He does deserve some of the blame as well as some of the credit as his command did better than he himself expected.
 
Something that is often overlooked concerning the battle on day 2. Lafayette McLaws had lost Lee's favor. Lee even considered removing him from his command. Longstreet stood up for Mclaws and as a result Lee instructed Longstreet to keep a close eye on McLaws division. That is why on the 2nd Longstreet became so involved in the fighting. He rode forward with Wofford's Georgians. The Georgians yelled and shouted to him and he inturn shouted to them "Cheer less men, and fight more" as the advance passed a group of Union prisoners one of them asked who the General was. When told it was Longstreet he growled "No wonder we are thrashed upon every field there is not in the whole of our army a lieutenant general who would have risked his life in such a charge"

This was a distraction Longstreet did not need at the time. Lafayette McLaws knew nothing of Longstreets pledge to Lee and resented Longstreet feeling that he meddled in his command. He even wrote a letter to his wife lambasting Longstreet.

Just another example of the many things going on that day that may have effected the communications of the battle.

Source Weirt page 276 General James Longstreet the confederacy's most controversial soldier.
 
Longstreet should have performed his own reconnaissance, but he didn't that was a mistake. Long and short of it is Longstreet did not prepare as well as he normally prepared for battle. He was most likley brooding about an attacked that he was against and allowed it to effect his normal preparation.
Very interesting thought, I have never seen it that way. I always thought he was obeying Lee's orders, though defiantly ... I will have to think more about your point of view.
 
Yeah, that always goes well. :smile: Just ask Stonewall.

Stonewall's problem wasn't in conducting a personal reconnaissance. His problem was doing so at night and trying to reenter his lines at a place different from the one from which he left his lines, therefore the troops there didn't know he was out there.
 
Stonewall's problem wasn't in conducting a personal reconnaissance. His problem was doing so at night and trying to reenter his lines at a place different from the one from which he left his lines, therefore the troops there didn't know he was out there.

Was he doing it? Then it was a problem. You'd argue with a doorknob, wouldn't you? Semantics.
 
Was he doing it? Then it was a problem. You'd argue with a doorknob, wouldn't you? Semantics.

Again, the personal reconnaissance wasn't the problem. There's no need to engage in a personal attack against me. I'm simply correcting your misunderstanding of what led to his being shot.
 
Again, the personal reconnaissance wasn't the problem. There's no need to engage in a personal attack against me. I'm simply correcting your misunderstanding of what led to his being shot.

I'm not attacking...I'm using common sense. If he'd been in his HQ sending someone else--he wouldn't have been shot. It's quite simple.
 
I'm not attacking...I'm using common sense. If he'd been in his HQ sending someone else--he wouldn't have been shot. It's quite simple.

"You'd argue with a doorknob" is an attack.

Good commanders go and see for themselves when they can. Jackson could and did. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. What he did wrong was returning to a place that was different from where he left his lines.
 
Interestingly enough one account that I read (And I can't remember where) stated when the pickett's detected him they demanded he halt and asked who goes there? They did not fire until after he announced Stonewall Jackson. They felt it could not have been so they fired. If this account is true then returning from whence you came would have made a lot of sense.
 

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