Lincoln Lincoln the man

[Acbernsen]

I'm a history teacher and I frequently ask myself about great men and women. If I were asked who is the greatest human of the all, I would have to say that it is a very close call between Lincoln and Churchill. Does anyone have any thoughts on this question? One of them obviously is relevant to the subject of this site, but I suspect that there might be admirers of both here. I suspect that they both would have seen the other's historical drama with great sympathy.

 

[Desert Kid]

I'm a history teacher and I frequently ask myself about great men and women. If I were asked who is the greatest human of the all, I would have to say that it is a very close call between Lincoln and Churchill. Does anyone have any thoughts on this question? One of them obviously is relevant to the subject of this site, but I suspect that there might be admirers of both here. I suspect that they both would have seen the other's historical drama with great sympathy.

While no doubt Lincoln was a good President, he had the good graces to die in office, so people elevated him to a God in our culture, much like they did Kennedy a century later. That's the only pitfall I can find about him.

The very things people smack Jefferson Davis for constantly, can just as well be turned on Lincoln, Lincoln gets a pass mostly because "He won the war, was assassinated".

Had he lived to die an old man, history would look at him quite differently.

 

[leftyhunter]

Thee term greatest is rather subjective at best. If you mean greatest as in greatest leader that kept their country together in difficult times then Lincoln and Churchill would have to be in the top ranks. On the other hand didn't Churchill lose his Prime Minister position in the election of 1944? Edit actually Churchill steped down from being the Prime Minister in 1945 when the Conservative Party lost the general elections. Churchill was reinstated to become the Prime Minister in 1951 and had to step down again due to poor health in 1953.
I think for the purposes of this discussion one has to be very specific on how one defines"great".
Also we have to keep in mind as many of my friends here have stated over the years that if the situation was reversed in the sense that Davis had the human and and material resources that Lincoln had and in turn the limited resources that Davis had and let us add to the fact that Davis suffered from great internal division including armed resistance by Southners then Lincoln would of lost.
Put it another way Davis did not have an effective navy to protect the ports of the Confederacy or the trade routes. The CSA was never formally recognized by other countries although yes the CSA could trade and buy arms from Western Europe but under great difficulty. The CSA had more limited manpower and industry. In common with the Union the CSA had to deal with quite a bit of guerrilla warfare plus the slaves would join the Union Army. In other words Davis had a lot more on his plate then Lincoln. Not that I am a big fan of the CSA or Davis but just being fair and balanced.
Leftyhunter

 

[cash]

I'm a history teacher and I frequently ask myself about great men and women. If I were asked who is the greatest human of the all, I would have to say that it is a very close call between Lincoln and Churchill. Does anyone have any thoughts on this question? One of them obviously is relevant to the subject of this site, but I suspect that there might be admirers of both here. I suspect that they both would have seen the other's historical drama with great sympathy.

What are the criteria for "greatest human of them all?"

 

[Bee]

While no doubt Lincoln was a good President, he had the good graces to die in office, so people elevated him to a God in our culture, much like they did Kennedy a century later. That's the only pitfall I can find about him.

The very things people smack Jefferson Davis for constantly, can just as well be turned on Lincoln, Lincoln gets a pass mostly because "He won the war, was assassinated".

Had he lived to die an old man, history would look at him quite differently.

Actually, I believe that it is Lincoln's evolution as a person, which means recognizing his own foibles and follies which makes him a remarkable human being. The fact that he was not a god, rather, a flawed human being who evolved over time sets him apart. One of the common tactics used by his detractors is to answer a question with a Lincoln quote taken out of the proper timeline, ie, the quote used did not reflect the most "current" view by Lincoln. Lincoln was not a product of fine education, family standing, strong finances or good looks. Conventionally speaking: He had nothing going for him, but he became a man of distinction in spite of it all.

 

[JohnW.]

Actually, I believe that it is Lincoln's evolution as a person, which means recognizing his own foibles and follies which makes him a remarkable human being. The fact that he was not a god, rather, a flawed human being who evolved over time sets him apart. One of the common tactics used by his detractors is to answer a question with a Lincoln quote taken out of the proper timeline, ie, the quote used did not reflect the most "current" view by Lincoln. Lincoln was not a product of fine education, family standing, strong finances or good looks. Conventionally speaking: He had nothing going for him, but he became a man of distinction in spite of it all.

Well said, very well said.

 

[leftyhunter]

I'm a history teacher and I frequently ask myself about great men and women. If I were asked who is the greatest human of the all, I would have to say that it is a very close call between Lincoln and Churchill. Does anyone have any thoughts on this question? One of them obviously is relevant to the subject of this site, but I suspect that there might be admirers of both here. I suspect that they both would have seen the other's historical drama with great sympathy.

If by greatest human as defined by keeping their country intact and victorious under the harsh conditions of war then we have to add two more national leaders , David Ben Gurion of Israel and Ho Chi Minh of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. all four of these leaders had a lot of loaded plate in terms of holding their country together and being victorious.
Leftyhunter

 

[Suzanne A]

For Lincoln the man, read some writings from men who worked in the HQ of the War Department and in the Ohio Light Home Guard which had the obligation to try to keep Lincoln secure, while he seemed to be a fatalist unconcerned with his safety.

Two free ebooks that I recommend fir their portraits of their day-to-day interactions with Lincoln:

Lincoln in the Telegraph Office by David Homer Bates, Google Books

Lincoln's Body Guard, The Union Light Guard of Ohio by Robert McBride.

Also Lincoln was kind, loving and tolerant toward his wife who according to accounts of his associates in the government could be arbitrarily and outrageously cruel to those around Lincoln and herself. Her behavior was so erratic that she couldn't be counted on to entertain at the White House, an obligation that fell on the son and daughter-in-law of Henry Seward and the daughter of Salmon P Chase at their homes. And bills sent to him at the White House reflect her uncontrolled and irrational spending.

Probably all of this behavior would be diagnosed as serious mental illness today, but he stood by her and insisted on her being treated with respect.

In addition, he was known for liberally pardonning Union soldiers sentenced to execution for desertion, especially if they were young.

His telegrams and dealings with his Generals from the Headquarters of the War Department, now being transcribed by researchers at www.decodingthecivilwar.org and msny already previously printed, show also tolerance and compassion but at the same time wisdom and sound judgment.

 

[lakertaker]

I usually hesitate to use the term "greatest" because it depends on your perspective. Like who's the greatest guitar player? Depends on the type of music you like. However, if the over-all vote was A. Lincoln, I sure wouldn't argue the point!

 

[Carpetbagger]

Who is the greatest human ever? That's easy, it was Muhammad Ali. He said so several thousand times.

 

[James B White]

Who is the greatest human ever? That's easy, it was Muhammad Ali. He said so several thousand times.

I just asked about this in a thread "Need Help with a Minstrel Song":

The greatest man that ever lived
Was Barnum see now what he did
He brought the Russian cat from France
And made the ringtailed monkey dance.

 

[Potomac Pride]

During his tenure as President, Lincoln was a very controversial public figure. His tragic death elevated him to the level of a hero and martyr.

 

[uaskme]

Actually, I believe that it is Lincoln's evolution as a person, which means recognizing his own foibles and follies which makes him a remarkable human being. The fact that he was not a god, rather, a flawed human being who evolved over time sets him apart. One of the common tactics used by his detractors is to answer a question with a Lincoln quote taken out of the proper timeline, ie, the quote used did not reflect the most "current" view by Lincoln. Lincoln was not a product of fine education, family standing, strong finances or good looks. Conventionally speaking: He had nothing going for him, but he became a man of distinction in spite of it all.

Lincoln did evolve as a person. He was human like us all. However it is important to discuss his views on Race in context to the decisions that he made. You can't erase all of his views just because you don't like them. He gets a pass on things others dont. NB Forest evolved as a person also but don't get the pass that Lincoln does. He was effective and able
To persevere. He was a great man but as always History is sometimes lost in translation. Only Politician who couldn't tell a lie. That is what I remember about him the most.

 

[atlantis]

Pedro the 2nd of Brazil freed Brazilian slaves. Tsar Alexander freed millions of serfs, they and Lincoln lived in the same era whatever flaws they had it does not change the fact they lifted millions out of bondage.

 

[leftyhunter]

Pedro the 2nd of Brazil freed Brazilian slaves. Tsar Alexander freed millions of serfs, they and Lincoln lived in the same era whatever flaws they had it does not change the fact they lifted millions out of bondage.[/QUO
True. On the other hand the above two leaders were not fighting a full scale Civil War. I agree that the definition of "greatest" is very subjective at best.
Leftyhunter

 

[photoman475]

I think it's too subjective to try and use the word great, especially when trying to compare men of different eras. Before that can be done, some sort of criteria have to be set up that people can use as a guide. Greatest leader of a country in the 20th Century, for example, limits the number of candidates and defines a category, in this case politics. Pick a different set of criteria, for example religion, then that opens up Jesus, Mohammed, etc., as possibilities.

 

[John Hartwell]

I would hesitate to list the "greatest" of most anything. But, when judging men, Churchill would most definitely NOT be on my list.

There is no denying the importance of Churchill's leadership during WWII. And, we may well smile at the memory of that. But, the man was odious in so many ways:

"I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."
Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

"Churchill raged that he [Gandhi] 'ought to be lain bound hand and foot at the gates of Delhi, and then trampled on by an enormous elephant with the new Viceroy seated on its back.' As the resistance swelled, he announced: 'I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.'" '][http://www.sabhlokcity.com/2013/07/barbarians-all-hitler-churchill-stalin-churchills-racism-was-beyond-belief/]

His views on the Irish are perhaps even more extreme.

 

[leftyhunter]

I would hesitate to list the "greatest" of most anything. But, when judging men, Churchill would most definitely NOT be on my list.

There is no denying the importance of Churchill's leadership during WWII. And, we may well smile at the memory of that. But, the man was odious in so many ways:

"I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."
Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

"Churchill raged that he [Gandhi] 'ought to be lain bound hand and foot at the gates of Delhi, and then trampled on by an enormous elephant with the new Viceroy seated on its back.' As the resistance swelled, he announced: 'I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.'" '][http://www.sabhlokcity.com/2013/07/barbarians-all-hitler-churchill-stalin-churchills-racism-was-beyond-belief/]

His views on the Irish are perhaps even more extreme.

I take it he was never invited to be the official parade marshal for St.Patrick's Day?. How were his views on the Irish even more extreme? That would take talent. I did not know that Churchill was so openly racist. If he were alive today it is doubtful he would give commencement speech's especially at Notre Dame.
Leftyhunter

 

[MattL]

An interesting question.

Maybe significant greatness requires significant flaws.

Though it might also simply be that being in a position to express greatness exposes and amplifies the same flaws we all have.

Lincoln had a practical goal. Preserve the Union. To accomplish that goal he would violate or empower his own personal beliefs, he would contradict them, he would evolve them. A goal that seemed impossible, how do you fight a war, win it, and enforce the losers to submit when they were willing to kill to separate.

Maybe that is what greatness looks like, someone dedicating themselves to a simple goal with a winding path towards it. To stay the path, to take shortcuts, to sell yourself and others out, to compromise your beliefs and that of others, all to accomplish said goal.

This is how I view Lincoln. As he himself said he was willing to free all or free no slaves to preserve the Union. No matter your views on his personal beliefs certainly they lay somewhere on the spectrum and to express he would land anywhere to accomplish his goal suggests he was willing to sell out his own principles and that of all others on any side of the issue.

Great leaders have practical goals and look beyond principles to accomplish them.

Many of those things can be applied to the Confederacy in many ways. Their goal of securing their Nation would lead them to violate their own arguments against their former Nation in many areas, such as conscription and monetary aspects (resulting in inflation).

Two aspects I see make it harder to assign greatness to the Confederacy however (though don't prevent it in my humble view):

1) It's much harder to pin it to a single person... Do you assign it to Jefferson Davis or Robert E Lee for example? Lincoln rises as a much easier and iconic figurehead of the Union than the Confederacy had. Jefferson Davis in particular I find hard to find truly compelling in his expressions of himself (maybe another aspect of greatness). Robert E Lee I can see the mantle of greatness fall easier on, which seems to be the case. His goal was to be loyal and protect Virginia and that dicated where his loyalties and actions lay.

2) They lost, it's far easier to assign greatness to someone who achieved their goal. Ironically possibly the greatest impact of the Confederacy's attempt to preserve their slave nation was to hasten the end of slavery.


On a relate note I think people overplay the Lincoln death deifying him. We certainly have never been devoid of anti-Lincoln views. The truth is we don't know what would have happened, maybe he would've accomplished even more significant things that would solidify his persona of being great. Maybe he would contradict it all, who knows. To assume that the only realistic option is that his assigned greatness would only lessen is far too limited for me to accept.

 

[FarawayFriend]

Two free ebooks that I recommend fir their portraits of their day-to-day interactions with Lincoln:

Lincoln in the Telegraph Office by David Homer Bates, Google Books

Lincoln's Body Guard, The Union Light Guard of Ohio by Robert McBride.

Thank you, @Suzanne A . I have just downloaded them.

Here are the sources, should others would like to download them also:

Lincoln in the Telegraph Office
https://archive.org/details/lincolnintelegra00baterich

Lincoln's Body Guard : the Union Light guard of Ohio
https://archive.org/details/lincolnsbodyguar00mcbr