Lincoln (2012)

[K Hale]

Arkansas was the other state.

As far as moralizing, the message to some extent is that if the end is right, then the end justifies the means. There was much shady stuff going on in the process of getting the amendment passed, with Lincoln being obviously shown to be willing to do whatever it took, even things that were borderline illegal (not to spoil, but I'm thinking here of the note Lincoln handed to Bilbo after Nicolay and Hay wouldn't take it).

At the end, Stevens even admits that the amendment passed by corruption, "aided and abetted by the purest man in America" (i.e. himself).

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

I'm not familiar with a Unionist government in Arkansas... did they put the "ten percent" or whatever plan into operation there as well?

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

Let's see how this works out mathematically... 36 states in the Union counting West Virginia and Nevada, means they need 27 to ratify. I think you can count the prewar free states as all "Yea" votes; that's 19 right there; plus I'm sure Delaware would have gone along, that's 1 more; then there are the two "wartime admissions," Nevada and West Virginia, two more; and the "readmitted states" of Tennessee, Louisiana, and Arkansas, presuming their war governors and government are pro-Union (safe bet); 3 more. That's 25 almost certain "Yea" votes, before considering Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri, and you'd only need two of those three in order to ratify. In other words, once it passed the House, it had excellent chances of ratification by the states, even without any of the remaining "Confederate" states, in or out of the Union.

 

[AndyHall]

In other words, once it passed the House, it had excellent chances of ratification by the states, even without any of the remaining "Confederate" states, in or out of the Union.

It was ratified by eleven state legislatures within a week of its House passage:

1. Illinois (February 1, 1865)
2. Rhode Island (February 2, 1865)
3. Michigan (February 3, 1865)
4. Maryland (February 3, 1865)
5. New York (February 3, 1865)
6. Pennsylvania (February 3, 1865)
7. West Virginia (February 3, 1865)
8. Missouri (February 6, 1865)
9. Maine (February 7, 1865)
10. Kansas (February 7, 1865)
11. Massachusetts (February 7, 1865)

On the other hand, Mississippi didn't ratify it until 1995.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

Hm. Some of my assumptions were off, as it appears Delaware and New Jersey caused problems... here's the list (albeit from Wikipedia):

1. Illinois (February 1, 1865)
2. Rhode Island (February 2, 1865)
3. Michigan (February 3, 1865)
4. Maryland (February 3, 1865)
5. New York (February 3, 1865)
6. Pennsylvania (February 3, 1865)
7. West Virginia (February 3, 1865)
8. Missouri (February 6, 1865)
9. Maine (February 7, 1865)
10. Kansas (February 7, 1865)
11. Massachusetts (February 7, 1865)
12. Virginia (February 9, 1865) - ratified by the Unionist Restored Government of Virginia
13. Ohio (February 10, 1865)
14. Indiana (February 13, 1865)
15. Nevada (February 16, 1865)
16. Louisiana (February 17, 1865)
17. Minnesota (February 23, 1865)
18. Wisconsin (February 24, 1865)
19. Vermont (March 8, 1865)
20. Tennessee (April 7, 1865)
21. Arkansas (April 14, 1865)
22. Connecticut (May 4, 1865)
23. New Hampshire (July 1, 1865)
24. South Carolina (November 13, 1865)
25. Alabama (December 2, 1865)
26. North Carolina (December 4, 1865)
27. Georgia (December 6, 1865)

Ratification was completed on December 6, 1865. The amendment was subsequently ratified by the following states:

1. Oregon (December 8, 1865)
2. California (December 19, 1865)
3. Florida (December 28, 1865, reaffirmed on June 9, 1869)
4. Iowa (January 15, 1866)
5. New Jersey (January 23, 1866, after having rejected it on March 16, 1865)
6. Texas (February 18, 1870)
7. Delaware (February 12, 1901, after having rejected it on February 8, 1865)
8. Kentucky (March 18, 1976, after having rejected it on February 24, 1865)
9. Mississippi (March 16, 1995, after having rejected it on December 5, 1865)

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

Stop channeling me, Andy!

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

Hm. "12. Virginia (February 9, 1865) - ratified by the Unionist Restored Government of Virginia"

 

[K Hale]

I'm not familiar with a Unionist government in Arkansas... did they put the "ten percent" or whatever plan into operation there as well?

I have no idea. That's just the other state that Day-Lewis as Lincoln mentions in the movie as a probability. This was after Stephens speaks of LA and TN as certainties. No details were given for why any of the three would ratify.

 

[CharlesZ]

If there was real opposition to the passage of the 13th Amendment then let's suppose the amendment failed. How would the country have dealt with the issue of African slavery?

 

[K Hale]

If there was real opposition to the passage of the 13th Amendment

There was definitely real opposition. It was a close vote, as has been mentioned in this thread. Opposing representatives even made speeches about it, and stuff. Passing it was kind of a big deal.

 

[Ellsworth avenger]

I have not seen the movie. I am not a big Spielberg fan.

That's something I've always found a little curious - it's about Lincoln and the war and politics; I don't think of it primarily as a "Spielberg movie" any more than I would have skipped say Valkyrie because it's a "Tom Cruise movie". It's definitely worth seeing.

Does it moralize? Well, there's an obvious perception that ending slavery is a good thing. I don't recall any of the characters in Congress etc. disagreeing with that, but in answer to your question, the objection was not so much to the literal text of the amendment as to the implication that it would lead to total negro equality, which very few people, including many abolitionists, including Lincoln himself for much of his life, didn't believe in or desire. Many people, again including Lincoln for at least part of his life, wished to link emancipation to emigration, sending free blacks "back" to Africa or perhaps to colonies in Central America. If Congress could have waved a magic wand and changed history so slavery never happened at all, that would likely have gone through with minimal objection

There is scene where a congressional member invokes the fear factor for the age.Women to get the vote!,and both sides of aisle erupt in a resounding no. I found it humorous,my wife not so much and started peppering me with questions. I deferred,with a promise to renegage later.
I grew up with the women's place in the home emancipation,and still step on my d--k once in awhile. Bare-foot ,preg,and in the kitchen
was
not just a joke where I was raised. I'm in a bit of trouble now,because my three year old grandson will sit on the couch with me to watch football and proclaim "A guy could starve around here!" Unfortunately I have no plausible deniability for the origin of this behavior.

 

[63rdOVI]

Saw the movie twice. As a performer myself, albeit in opera and not film, I was enthralled by the characterizations of all the actors: Day-Lewis, Field, Jones, Strathairn, McGill, and even James Spader as William Bilbo. Loved watching Lincoln sharpening his pencil with a pocket knife, listening to his watch (I think I read that Spielberg recorded Lincoln's actual watch in the National Archives for the sound), wearing his shawl, spending his days in the War Room, riding a horse at Petersburg, and building up the fire in the Lincoln "Bedroom" fireplace.

As many here before me have already mentioned the movie is not a documentary of Lincoln himself but a movie about him and the 13th Amendment. And to me it is an extremely enjoyable film, one which I hope to be able to watch again and again. As a West Virginian, I am, I must admit, a Lincoln man.

During the scene showing the passage of the 13th Amendment, I really wanted to stand up and sing "The Battle Cry of Freedom" along with the characters in the movie, but I'm sure that I would have annoyed many around me. Although the long-lasting and LOUD applause at the end of the movie did indicate that perhaps I may not have been alone in my wish to join in...

Yes, the Lincoln haters will hate the film. But as a film of what Lincoln just might have really been like, even if just a little bit...this movie did its job. And in portraying one of the seminal issues of our Republic and our Union in such an enjoyable and accessible way, well, then...enough said.

 

[AndyHall]

Yes, the Lincoln haters will hate the film.

The "Lincoln haters" I've seen online haven't had much to say about the content of the film; they're grousing generally that it exists at all. It's free-form whinging, mostly unconnected to any specfific dialogue or scene. They mostly seem to be working from the same script they have for a long time, copy-and-pasting anti-Lincoln screeds from LewRockwell-dot-com and saying things like, "I bet that Spielberg film doesn't mention this!," followed by some anecdote about Lincoln that supposedly "proves" he was a complete fraud/Marxist/racist/Spawn of Satan. Some of the supposedly profound observations about the film don't even make any sense, like this gem:

​

The movie Lincoln disappoints Lincoln fans. As it turns out the movie isn't much about slavery, but about Lincoln.​

Huh? That same person was complaining earlier -- weeks before it movie was set for release -- that it probably wasn't going to show any "black Confederates." (She was right about that.) It's silly and it's tiresome, but it makes them feel better.

 

[K Hale]

They don't have anything to say about the content because they refuse to watch it. And yet, they're convinced they know alllll about it and are qualified to criticize it... LOL

I'm still amused by the guy who said, "Being about the 13th Amendment weakens the film." Not sure how a film about the 13th Amendment is weakened by being about the 13th Amendment, unless of course one dislikes the 13th Amendment -- but nobody's gonna admit that, are they?

I mentioned this before, but one of these folks (on Facebook) came right out and said that his objection was that "It's about Lincoln." He is, if nothing else, honest.

 

[cash]

Huh. I wasn't aware that liberals were panning the film. (?) Matter of fact, very few people are panning the film; it's running a solid 90% on Rotten Tomatoes (95% among top critics).

There are some academics who have criticized the film for presenting only a very small picture of what it took to abolish slavery.

http://studycivilwar.wordpress.com/2012/12/01/the-academics-weigh-in-on-spielbergs-lincoln/

 

[K Hale]

There are some academics who have criticized the film for presenting only a very small picture of what it took to abolish slavery.

http://studycivilwar.wordpress.com/2012/12/01/the-academics-weigh-in-on-spielbergs-lincoln/

Criticizing a film about the 13th Amendment because it's about the 13th Amendment... and these are academics. LOL

 

[ole]

Well, I liked it. It presented Lincoln in an understandable way. Warts and all.

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

Dunno... are you contemplating the possibility that the Confederates were all bloodsucking undead?

 

[Battalion]

Grant's meeting with the Confederate Peace Commissioners (from Lincoln script)-

INT. THE RIVER QUEEN SALOON, CITY POINT, VIRGINIA - DAY
Grant and the commissioners stand in an expansive cabin at
the stern, patriotically decorated, large windows.
Grant hands the commissioners' peace proposal back to them.
He's scribbled notes all over the document.

GRANT
I suggest you work some changes to
your proposal before you give it to
the President.

R.M.T HUNTER
We're eager to be on our way to
Washington.

ALEXANDER STEPHENS
Did Mr. Lincoln tell you to tell us
this, General Grant?
Grant fixes Stephens with a look - bemused, a little
disappointed.

GRANT
It says..."securing peace for our
two countries." And it goes on like
that.

ALEXANDER STEPHENS
I don't know what you -

GRANT
There's just one country. You and
I, we're citizens of that country.
I'm fighting to protect it from
armed rebels. From you.

ALEXANDER STEPHENS
But Mr. Blair told us, he, he told
President Davis we were -

GRANT
A private citizen like Preston
Blair can say what he pleases,
since he has no authority over
anything. If you want to discuss
peace with President Lincoln,
consider revisions.
He lights a cigar.

ALEXANDER STEPHENS
If we're not to discuss a truce
between warring nations, what in
heaven's name can we discuss?

GRANT
Terms of surrender.


Grant's meeting with the Confederate Peace Commissioners (from Grant's Personal Memoirs)-

ON the last of January, 1895, peace commissioners from the so-called Confederate States presented themselves on our lines around Petersburg, and were immediately conducted to my headquarters at City Point. They proved to be Alexander H. Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy, Judge Campbell, Assistant-Secretary of War, and R. M. T. Hunt, formerly United States Senator and then a member of the Confederate Senate. 1
It was about dark when they reached my headquarters, and I at once conducted them to the steam Mary Martin, a Hudson River boat which was very comfortably fitted up for the use of passengers. I at once communicated by telegraph with Washington and informed the Secretary of War and the President of the arrival of these commissioners and that their object was to negotiate terms of peace between he United States and, as they termed it, the Confederate Government. It was instructed to retain them at City Point, until the President, or some one whom he would designate, should come to meet them. They remained several days as guests on board the boat. I saw them quite frequently, though I have no recollection of having had any conversation whatever with them on the subject of their mission. It was something I had nothing to do with, and I therefore did not wish to express any views on the subject. For my own part I never had admitted, and never was ready to admit, that they were the representatives of a government. There had been too great a waste of blood and treasure to concede anything of the kind. As long as they remained there, however, our relations were pleasant and I found them all very agreeable gentlemen.
(my emphasis)
http://www.bartleby.com/1011/63.html

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

:: waiting to see how this gets twisted around to the topic of 'Black Confederates' ::