Lincoln (2012)

I caught a matinee yesterday. It was a fantastic movie. While I won't delve into a lengthy review, I will comment on a theme of the movie to say that it was very well done. There were a few, I guess, but one that struck out was the struggle between idealism and pragmatism. We saw Lincoln explain it when he talked about the Emancipation Proclamation (lamenting that he had to hypocritically ignore his own core belief that blacks were people not property), and throughout the movie when Lincoln had to underhandedly cajole votes for the Amendment and ostensibly (at least as it would appear to some) prolong the war to allow its passing.

This theme is of course most literally shown through Thaddeus Stevens when he struggles with whether to moderate himself to appease a racist people he has no respect for - the majority of the American people. In summary, I thought Lincoln did a great a job with the "Does the ends justify the means?" question.
 
Oh please spare me the loaded and leading questions. Somehow I was under the impression the movie was about the last year of Lincoln's life which would have to move along quickly because so many things happened in the the last year. I would expect to see some brief battlefield footage but more importantly a reasonable amount of time devoted to Lincoln's political campaign for reelection which would include McClellan making an appearance or a nippet or two of his speeches.

I would anticipate a scene of Lincoln doing some intense hand wringing while suffering some stressfull moments dealing with the very heavy casualties from the continuous fighting from the Overland campaign. Several examples of Lincoln's humorous folksy story telling and a few minutes or scenes of Lincoln receiving uplifting news like the fall of Atlanta and some time devoted to the Fedruary of 65 meeting with Stephens and the other Confederate representatives along with some of the issues within the Lincoln family which would give Mary Todd and the Lincoln children some face time.

And of course some footage and time spent on the 13th Amendment and especially a scene of the speech Lincoln gave shortly after the surrender of the ANV with the camera zooming in on JWB's face who was in the crowd that assembled to hear Lincoln speak that day and of course the tragic end at Ford's theatre. Instead I have read that the film starts in early 65 and a couple of reviews by contributers here say the film is focused mainly on the 13th amendment. One contributer even said he felt the title of the film should have been "The 13th Amendment."

When I do finally see the film I promise I will find this thread and post my own review.

It seems to me that you're looking for a documentary on Lincoln's life and the Civil War. This movie is not that documentary. As you've gleaned from reviews, it's a story about the struggle (political and otherwise) to pass the 13th Amendment. It's an important story, and Abraham Lincoln is the central and most important character. I suppose that's why it's called Lincoln, although if Spielberg would have asked me it would have a catchier title.

Movies need to have tight, compelling stories to sell. This is the one they chose. I personally think it was a good choice. Documentaries don't make it into theaters; they don't make millions of dollars. As a lover of history, I'm thankful Spielberg and Co. wrote a tight script that can draw the likes of Daniel Day-Lewis.
 
Since I saw the film, I know I'm not in your category of being "way off base." Other than that, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here with addressing this scene.

Anyway, I doubt that scene, a face-to-face encounter with a Black soldier, really took place. What DID happen was that on September 28, 1863, Corporal James Henry Gooding of the 54th Massachusetts Infantry sent a letter to President Lincoln regarding the inequality of pay between Black and White soldiers. But there is no evidence that Lincoln ever saw that letter.

Other than this, I don't know of any real encounters between Lincoln and Black troops. I still don't consider it "disrespectful" that an African-American soldier would during the war confront Lincoln about the issues that concerned the USCT the most: equal pay; promotion to officers' rank; and fair treatment as prisoners of war. If anything was disrespectful, those things most certainly were.


To me, it seems more likely than not that Lincoln met a Black soldier. It also seems more likely than not that Lincoln had to confront, in one way or another, the racially-based pay discrepancy. There were tens of thousands of soldiers in and around Washington at any given time. Lincoln also visited soldiers in Virginia. Only the tiniest percentage of these conversations were ever memorialized.

I think in a movie like this you have to take artistic license. The issue is whether it's founded on a historically accurate setting. At the time a lot more information was passed along through conversation than though letters, but unfortunately we only have the latter today. Sometimes in these movies you get the "there's no way that happened" feeling. I didn't get that in Lincoln. But maybe somebody will remind me of something and show how X scene makes no (or very little) sense.

That said, I also think that opening scene was a bit overdone. Particularly the Gettysburg Address parts - unlikely that ever happened. But I know what Spielberg was doing, he was buttressing that speech with the Second Inaugural at the film's conclusion. Also, with the exchange with the soldier, he was, right-off-the-bat, showing the complexities of Lincoln's character. Modern audiences probably expect The Great Emancipator to show overt empathy and vow to remedy the injustice. But what we saw is a measured response; one that listened and connected, but did not promise things Lincoln knew were not politically feasible.
 
Since I saw the film, I know I'm not in your category of being "way off base." Other than that, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here with addressing this scene.
The point I'm making is that I'm agreeing with you and expanding upon the subtlety of that scene.

Anyway, I doubt that scene, a face-to-face encounter with a Black soldier, really took place. What DID happen was that on September 28, 1863, Corporal James Henry Gooding of the 54th Massachusetts Infantry sent a letter to President Lincoln regarding the inequality of pay between Black and White soldiers. But there is no evidence that Lincoln ever saw that letter.
That is probably what this scene represents. Remember, this is not a documentary. It is a movie.
 
Looks from the opinions, the movie is worth seeing.

No movie is ever perfect. The director on an historical movie is never an historian, and some personal opinions can come through. If you don't like the movie, I always said, make your own.
Which is why I'll wait to rent it. Already know the story line. And I can repeat any interesting scene that same day.
It'll fit in nicely, as a change of pace, with my war documentaries of other wars.
 
It seems to me that you're looking for a documentary on Lincoln's life and the Civil War. This movie is not that documentary. As you've gleaned from reviews, it's a story about the struggle (political and otherwise) to pass the 13th Amendment. It's an important story, and Abraham Lincoln is the central and most important character. I suppose that's why it's called Lincoln, although if Spielberg would have asked me it would have a catchier title.

Movies need to have tight, compelling stories to sell. This is the one they chose. I personally think it was a good choice. Documentaries don't make it into theaters; they don't make millions of dollars. As a lover of history, I'm thankful Spielberg and Co. wrote a tight script that can draw the likes of Daniel Day-Lewis.

I appreciate what a documentary is and that is NOT what I wanted. Like I said I was under the impression the movie Lincoln was about the last year of his life but I was mistaken. The movie is primarily focused on the thirteenth amendment. I disagree with your belief that a great movie could not be made of the last year of Lincoln's life and if it wasdone well that it would not make millions of dollars. I am happy most contributers here that have seen the movie liked it.
 
This is hilarious. Folks, calm thyselves. Seems we're all happy about the film being made, have varying opinions about what we'd have liked to be included, and everyone here is a big boy/girl who can make his/her own decision about whether to see it now or later.

If you have anything to add about what you saw, please do so.
 
alexander-stephens.jpg


Point taken.

It doesn't get more creepy than this character'
securedownload.jpg
 
I appreciate what a documentary is and that is NOT what I wanted. Like I said I was under the impression the movie Lincoln was about the last year of his life but I was mistaken. The movie is primarily focused on the thirteenth amendment. I disagree with your belief that a great movie could not be made of the last year of Lincoln's life and if it wasdone well that it would not make millions of dollars. I am happy most contributers here that have seen the movie liked it.

We do disagree on that. While you and I might enjoy a lengthy narrative of Lincoln's last year, necessarily covering dozens of topics and storylines, I'm hard pressed to believe the general public will find it palatable. But there's no way for me to prove that. Other than the fact that it has never been done.

In any case, I do recommend this movie. It's very well put together.
 
To me, it seems more likely than not that Lincoln met a Black soldier. It also seems more likely than not that Lincoln had to confront, in one way or another, the racially-based pay discrepancy. There were tens of thousands of soldiers in and around Washington at any given time. Lincoln also visited soldiers in Virginia. Only the tiniest percentage of these conversations were ever memorialized.

I think in a movie like this you have to take artistic license. The issue is whether it's founded on a historically accurate setting. At the time a lot more information was passed along through conversation than though letters, but unfortunately we only have the latter today. Sometimes in these movies you get the "there's no way that happened" feeling. I didn't get that in Lincoln. But maybe somebody will remind me of something and show how X scene makes no (or very little) sense.

That said, I also think that opening scene was a bit overdone. Particularly the Gettysburg Address parts - unlikely that ever happened. But I know what Spielberg was doing, he was buttressing that speech with the Second Inaugural at the film's conclusion. Also, with the exchange with the soldier, he was, right-off-the-bat, showing the complexities of Lincoln's character. Modern audiences probably expect The Great Emancipator to show overt empathy and vow to remedy the injustice. But what we saw is a measured response; one that listened and connected, but did not promise things Lincoln knew were not politically feasible.

Saying it's unlikely that happened contradicts your comments ealrier about "a lot more information was passed along through conversation than though letters."

In thinking about this more and knowing that Lincoln visited troops in Washington City; and knowing that Black soldiers were quartered and trained on Mason's Island (now Theodore Roosevelt Island) in DC; I think the whole thing comes down to this question: Did Lincoln ever visit the United States Colored Troops? or did Frederick Douglass ever speak to him about the matter of officer's commissions for Black soldiers? Now I'm thinking the scene may be a lot more accurate than the historical narrative has led us to believe.

Ask the question like this: Before this movie, have you ever seen in a movie or heard about Lincoln in a conversation with a Black person? If not, maybe this is why it's hard to imagine.

BTW, your comment about beginning the movie with the Gettysburg Address (on the south interior wall of the Lincoln Memorial) and ending it with the Second Inaugural (on the north interior wall of the Memorial) is interesting. It's like the movie is the Lincoln Memorial come to life.
 
I honestly do not understand where you see a contradiction. But whatever.

When the movie started with a recitation of the GA (a little forced IMO, but obviously deliberate), my first thought was "well, I know where the movie's going to end." When the plot skipped from the House vote to April 14th, I was confused. I couldn't believe they'd skip over the speech. But alas, they traced back. While I like the bookends, I think they could have done it better.
 
I honestly do not understand where you see a contradiction. But whatever.

First you said, "At the time a lot more information was passed along through conversation than though letters, but unfortunately we only have the latter today."

Then you said, "I also think that opening scene was a bit overdone. Particularly the Gettysburg Address parts - unlikely that ever happened."

No offense but that sounds like a contradiction to me.
 
Yeah, you already pointed out the parts you're referring to. You'll need to explain yourself. I'm at a loss.

If we don't have record of most verbal conversations that took place between people, as you correctly pointed out, how would you know if the meeting between Lincoln and the soldiers, as shown in the movie, never took place? Can you explain why you feel it's "unlikely that ever happened?"
 
Wondering if this film would have entertainment value for someone not especially interested in history (like my wife)?
 
00468v.jpg


This doesn't answer directly the question of Lincoln's interaction with USCTs, but it does describe his visit to Richmond, roughly within the period covered in the film, and meeting with freemen there. From the Atlantic, June 1865:

He entered the city unheralded; six sailors, armed with carbines, stepped upon the shore, followed by the President, who held his little son by the hand, and Admiral Porter; the officers followed, and six more sailors brought up the rear. The writer of this article was there upon the spot, and, joining the party, became an observer of the memorable event.
There were forty or fifty freedmen, who had been sole possessors of themselves for twenty-four hours, at work on the bank of the canal, securing some floating timber, under the direction of a Lieutenant. Somehow they obtained the information that the man who was head and shoulders taller than all others around him, with features large and irregular, with a mild eye and pleasant countenance, was President Lincoln.
"God bless you, Sah!" said one, taking off his cap and bowing very low.
"Hurrah! hurrah! President Linkum hab come!" was the shout which rang through the street.
The Lieutenant found himself without a command. What cared those freedmen, fresh from the house of bondage, for floating timber or military commands? Their deliverer had come,—he who, next to the Lord Jesus, was their best friend! It was not an hurrah that they gave, but a wild, jubilant cry of inexpressible joy.
They gathered round the President, ran ahead, hovered upon the flanks of the little company, and hung like a dark cloud upon the rear. Men, women, and children joined the constantly increasing throng. They came from all the by-streets, running in breathless haste, shouting and hallooing and dancing with delight. The men threw up their hats, the women waved their bonnets and handkerchiefs, clapped their hands, and sang, "Glory to God! glory! glory! glory! "—rendering all the praise to God, who had heard their wailings in the past, their moanings for wives, husbands, children, and friends sold out of their sight, had given them freedom, and, after long years of waiting, had permitted them thus unexpectedly to behold the face of their great benefactor.
"I thank you, dear Jesus, that I behold President Linkum!" was the exclamation of a woman who stood upon the threshold of her humble home, and with streaming eyes and clasped hands gave thanks aloud to the Saviour of men.
Another, more demonstrative in her joy, was jumping and striking her hands with all her might, crying, —"Bless de Lord! Bless de Lord! Bless de Lord!" as if there could be no end of her thanksgiving. . . .
Abraham Lincoln was walking their streets; and, worst of all, that plain, honest-hearted man was recognizing the "******s" as human beings by returning their salutations! The walk was long, and the President halted a moment to rest. "May de good Lord bless you, President Linkum!" said an old negro, removing his hat, and bowing with tears of joy rolling down his cheeks. The President removed his own hat, and bowed in silence; but it was a bow which upset the forms, laws, customs, and ceremonies of centuries. It was a death-shock to chivalry, and a mortal wound to caste. Recognize a ******! Faugh! A woman in an adjoining house beheld it, and turned from the scene in unspeakable disgust. There were men in the crowd who had daggers in their eyes; but the chosen assassin was not there, the hour for the damning work had not come, and that great-hearted man passed on to the executive mansion of the late Confederacy.

That last graf just kills.

__________
Image: Freedmen by the canal, Richmond, April 1865. Library of Congress.
 
Wondering if this film would have entertainment value for someone not especially interested in history (like my wife)?

My mom went and saw it, she really seemed to enjoy it and had a lot of questions about it afterwards. I didn't make my wife go see it with me, but hopefully she will give it a chance when it comes out on blu-ray.
 

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