What is this? Light minie bayonet?

[Jack7171]

Recent pickup was this sword bayonet, that I can't find another example to compare. Maybe the cwt sleuths can enlighten me as always.
1.It's a got an almost identical yatagan shaped and size blade as a chasspot,, but a completely different crossbar.
2. It's got a crossbar and handle almost identical and to a Brazilian light minie, but totally different shaped blade
3. It's a german made blade and stamped NJ.
4. It's similar in size and blade style to an Enfield short rifle, but has a brass ribbed handle. Short Enfields had a pressed leather handle.
5. It fits (with a little persuasion) a Brazilian light minie.
6. I'm stumped, please help
The 2nd pic shows both the bayonet in question and a Brazilian minie bayonet on the bottom for comparison

 

[WScott]

I found a drawing of an Enfield rifle with a bayonet very similar to the one in your picture. (Civil War Collector's Encyclopedia, Lord 1965). You could pursue this line of search but I'm sure there are others out there that could be of more help. Good luck.

 

[bobinwmass]

This description seems pretty similar.
https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-u-s-civil-war-model-1842-saber-bayonet-by-pdl-of-solingen

 

[Jack7171]

This description seems pretty similar.
https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-u-s-civil-war-model-1842-saber-bayonet-by-pdl-of-solingen

I thought so myself, yet the crossbar is wrong

 

[Old Soldier]

At first sight, it looks like a French Model 1842 bayonet for carbines, but the lower crosspiece turns back on that one, not forwards. The crosspiece is very similar to the British P1856 carbine bayonet - also made in Solingen - but the British grip was compressed leather riveted onto the steel shank. Once again we see the large initials stamped on the ricasso seen on many other bayonets that ended up on the US side of the Atlantic. Could these be Confederate or even Union import markings - the initials of the receiving importer/officer?
Is there a date on the flat top of the blade near the crosspiece?

It may well fit a 2-band Enfield - the 'short' rifle. Why the brass grip? It was a 'fashion' on mainland Europe to follow the French pattern - easily identified and cleaned - and VERY showy! It could never be mistaken for a British issue bayonet, but still make a good profit for the manufacturer.

 

[Jack7171]

At first sight, it looks like a French Model 1842 bayonet for carbines, but the lower crosspiece turns back on that one, not forwards. The crosspiece is very similar to the British P1856 carbine bayonet - also made in Solingen - but the British grip was compressed leather riveted onto the steel shank. Once again we see the large initials stamped on the ricasso seen on many other bayonets that ended up on the US side of the Atlantic. Could these be Confederate or even Union import markings - the initials of the receiving importer/officer?
Is there a date on the flat top of the blade near the crosspiece?

It may well fit a 2-band Enfield - the 'short' rifle. Why the brass grip? It was a 'fashion' on mainland Europe to follow the French pattern - easily identified and cleaned - and VERY showy! It could never be mistaken for a British issue bayonet, but still make a good profit for the manufacturer.

That seems to be the case, as far as the hybrid construction method of the german mfg Enfield style, yet the French brass grip, and the belgian crossbar,, and according to Tim Prince, it would be for an 1859 Pondir rifle, which in itself was a french/english/belgian hybrid rifle based on an 1842 french, a 2 band Enfield, yet mfg in belgian. Pondirs were known to have NJ surcharges, which fits why this bayonet has them as well.

 

[Old Soldier]

Another one to add to the list! Also called the m1859 'Carabine de Vincennes' Rifle and appears in a number of older threads on this site.

The Pondir was issued to Infantry regiments: 19th, 29th, 40th, 54th, 55th, 62nd, 66th

 

[Jack7171]

Another one to add to the list! Also called the m1859 'Carabine de Vincennes' Rifle and appears in a number of older threads on this site.

View attachment 438359

The Pondir was issued to Infantry regiments: 19th, 29th, 40th, 54th, 55th, 62nd, 66th

That's actually one I was trying to search, but I couldn't remember the name! I've been racking my brain trying to remember that one, but I couldn't remember the Vincennes part! So those were NJ regiments you've listed?

 

[Old Soldier]

That's actually one I was trying to search, but I couldn't remember the name! I've been racking my brain trying to remember that one, but I couldn't remember the Vincennes part! So those were NJ regiments you've listed?

I will admit to copying and pasting, but is there a better site to find out from? More research reveals these were OHIO regiments and, luckily, Ohio kept detailed records of types and issues.

19th Ohio Volunteer Infantry - 660 Pondir rifle muskets, 69 cal + 200 Enfield rifle muskets.
29th Ohio Volunteer Infantry - 780 Pondir's rifle muskets, 69 cal + 200 Enfield rifle muskets
40th Ohio Volunteer Infantry - 760 Pondir's rifle muskets, 69 cal + 200 Enfield rifle muskets.
54th Ohio Volunteer Infantry - 600 Pondir muskets, .69 cal
55th Ohio Volunteer Infantry - 586 Pondir rifle muskets, cal 69 + 380 Enfield rifle muskets.
62nd Ohio Volunteer Infantry- 780 Pondir's rifle musket, 69 cal + 200 Enfield rifle muskets.
66th Ohio Volunteer Infantry - 704 Pondir's rifle musket, 69 cal

Only 3,241 of these guns were imported and it seems most of them were sent here and reissued a number of times since the numbers here add up to 4,870!

More info: from: https://civilwarguns.blogspot.com/2015/04/rifle-muskets-civil-war-scandals-civil-war-guns.html

Case No. 2. John Pondir, Philadelphia.
He contracted to furnish 10,000 Light Minie Rifles with saber bayonets, at $18.50 each, July 26, 1861. The rifles were described by Pondir as These are the beautiful Minie, which ... are at the low price of $18.50. They are a light .58 or .577 French pattern arm, of the Chasseurs de Vincennes style, back action lock, brass trim, made for Pondir under an order he placed at Liege. Barrels are blacked; long range rear sight, weight about 7#, barrel 32V4". The fabricant of these arms is unknown. Deliveries by Pondir on February 3, 19, 20, 27, March 6, and 11, totalled 2,288 arms.
The Commission recommended he be allowed to deliver the full 10,000.

 

[Jack7171]

Awesome finds! I wonder how many ended up in New Jersey as well? There is one shown on a previous older post and it has a New Jersey surcharge like my bayonet does, but I can't find any info on NJ issuances.

 

[Old Soldier]

From: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/musket-identification-requested.185961/ (just to illustrate.)