Klingenthal Cavalry Saber

[bayonet]

Well bidding the lowest amount possible strikes again in my favor (I think). Not the first time others past something by for possibly being unsure and my grabbing it. Looking in the Civil War Army Swords by Thillmann on page 28 graph shows the markings on Crown B in a circle to be 1845 onward which is stamped on the blade here. Klingenthal also clearly marked on top spine of the blade. I was worried there was no US or E Pluribus Unum etched in the blade but there are examples in the book of some blades not having those markings. So anyone with his book on Cavalry & Artillery Sabers can you see if this sword is in there? It's one thing to spend $400 on a Sword but over $400 on that book I'd be toast with the wife as in burnt toast. Company said they may do a reprint bringing the cost way down. It's interesting that the etching is only on one side of the scabbard and has that tight type fabric I have never seen before between the scabbard rings.

 

[JackADriscoll]

From what I've read the crown b s shield is suggestive of swords made for American export via Belgium. Good find.

 

[Glen_C]

Nice sword.

This is a pre 1836 Klingenthal blade, before Coulaux went from entrepreneur status to outright owner.

Note the signature on the spine. https://web.archive.org/web/20180121074103/http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/klingenthal.htm The S in a shield belonged to F.C.Schimitt, inspector (revisier) with that poincon from 1830-1835.

Collectors had at times scrubbed the spines of Klingenthal swords, even truly ACW swords, as the spine writing does not belie manufacture in the 1860s, even when properly marked so. Surplus blades recycled as U.S. French pattern swords. My Chatellerault 1854 dragoon had the spine entirely erased, for whatever reason. It did surface in the U.S.

Fwiw, Thillman gets credit for many things but there are instances, where no one is reading Petard. I bought the Thillman army book expecting the worst but by and large, it was an impressive effort. A few hiccups though, the poincons one of the issues.

Here is a post 1836 spine, with the same (earlier) poincons. B for J.A. Bisch (ending use in 1834)

Model 1850 Civil War sword made in France by Klingenthal

Picked this up yesterday from a couple who inherited it from a recently-deceased 96-year-old family member, who had written that it was from the Civil War. It was made in Klingenthal which was part of France, but seized by Germany from 1870 to 1918. The spine of the blade is marked "Maufre de Kli...

www.usmilitariaforum.com

Old blades, etched to suit. Signed when made. A private cutler/mounter would have a mark on the blade side of the guard.

Cheers
GC

 

[UCVRelics]

Very Nice Sword. Looks like a great addition to your collection.

 

[JackADriscoll]

That scabbard is interesting I have a Chinese German made 1889 model sword with a very similar scabbard

 

[bayonet]

That scabbard is interesting I have a Chinese German made 1889 model sword with a very similar scabbard

Oh boy that's not what I wanted to hear

 

[JackADriscoll]

Oh boy that's not what I wanted to hear

Oh no brother that not definitive just an observation.

 

[bayonet]

Let me know anyone if you find examples of that type fabric on scabbards between the rings?

 

[Glen_C]

It looks like twine, certainly not part of a fine brass scabbard. It is probably covering a repair.

 

[gjpratt]

Nice $400 pickup.

 

[bayonet]

It looks like twine, certainly not part of a fine brass scabbard. It is probably covering a repair.

Well they did a good job for it's as tight as can be. I feel no crack, bumps, dents, etc. under it. Wonder if I should remove it and see?

 

[Glen_C]

That may be glued. Shine a bore light down the scabbard. It was probably bent and someone tried to straighten it, resulting in a crack. You can see the end of the twine next to the fitting. I've opened a crack in one myself I thought I could, I thought I could.

 

[Gandycreek]

Well they did a good job for it's as tight as can be. I feel no crack, bumps, dents, etc. under it. Wonder if I should remove it and see?

Probably has CSA GETTYSBURG under there !

 

[bayonet]

Probably has CSA GETTYSBURG under there !

Nah I didn't get it from E Bay

 

[R. Porter]

It looks like a cavalry officer's sword missing a branch. How long is the blade and how many fullers? In general, I am more doubtful of French swords making it into the Civil War than other swords. This one is certainly early enough to have arrived in the U. S. in time for the war. Officers were required to purchase their own swords and this one is a well-made officer's sword, at least the hilt looks the part and the blade is decorated; but do they go together?

If the blade is infantry length then perhaps that is why the guard is missing a branch. There isn't a good view of the pommel so it's impossible to tell if it has been separated from the blade. The cord wrapped scabbard reminded me of another scabbard. I thought the cord suggested a naval association. The sword in the scabbard doesn't fit and I assumed it was put in the scabbard just for shipping or to keep it from cutting things up.

 

[R. Porter]

 

[R. Porter]

For those of you who are wondering if the Japanese sword is signed, I won't keep you in suspense.

 

[R. Porter]

 

[R. Porter]

There are some tool marks but no signature. Since the scabbard doesn't go with the sword we can't make the mistake of thinking the fittings might date the sword or vice versa and give an idea of when macrame showed up on scabbards. I also don't know how old the Japanese sword is either. I can say the blade is scratched up and rusty, but still sharp as a razor.

 

[bayonet]

It looks like a cavalry officer's sword missing a branch. How long is the blade and how many fullers? In general, I am more doubtful of French swords making it into the Civil War than other swords. This one is certainly early enough to have arrived in the U. S. in time for the war. Officers were required to purchase their own swords and this one is a well-made officer's sword, at least the hilt looks the part and the blade is decorated; but do they go together?

If the blade is infantry length then perhaps that is why the guard is missing a branch. There isn't a good view of the pommel so it's impossible to tell if it has been separated from the blade. The cord wrapped scabbard reminded me of another scabbard. I thought the cord suggested a naval association. The sword in the scabbard doesn't fit and I assumed it was put in the scabbard just for shipping or to keep it from cutting things up.

Blade is 35" long. Hilt/Guard go together (very tight) so no sign of rehilting at top of pommel. It's almost like a fabric and not a cord, it's aged for sure and not done recent. Looked inside the scabbard with a light and don't see anything unusual. Wonder if whoever owned it in the past did it because when you carry it by hand that's where you carry it between the 2 rings. So he added it himself professionally. 1 large fuller all the way down almost and 1 very smaller one at the top 1/3 way down ending 1/3 before the tip.