Jurirmann Sword...ACW???

[Jobe Holiday]

It is a great historic sword with a history of its own.....but just not ACW history!
J.

 

[Cuirassier]

Austrian Cavalry Saber M 1904, introduced 1908. A lot of reproductions are known, f.e. by Cold Steel or WKC, but this looks original. The original saber M 1908 were made by many companies from Austria, Hungary and Germany and may differ from manufacturer to manufacturer a bit.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Cuirassier - Can you explain to us what appears to be an 1855 date?
Thank you.
J.

 

[Specster]

I think it is a M1850. I think that matches most closely. If it means anything, there are two smaller 4s after 1855.

 

[Glen_C]

Heros Von Borke carried a sword that must have been similar to that. It was bigger and heavier than the 1940 or 1860 issue Cavalry saber. But then, he could carry whatever he wanted to.

von Borcke has been mentioned a couple of times but to mention he must have carried a sword somewhat similar is denying one's effort in actually learning about the mans swords.

From a discussion a decade ago

Von Borcke had more than one sword.

On the second (small) picture he carries definite a Prussian "Füsilier-Offizier-Säbel" (sabre for light infantry officiers). It was possible to put on/off the knuckle bow.

The sword on the first could be a Prussian "Kürassier-Offizier-Degen, russischer Form" (Cuirassier-Officer-Sword - Russian Type).

By the way v. Borcke was officier in the Prussian "Garde-Kürassier-Regiment" (Garde-Cuirassier-Regiment) before he was officier in the CSA.

It would be unusual that he carried a model of a French weapon. At this time Prussia and France were not friends.

Claus

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2001.05.0008

Cheers

GC

 

[Glen_C]

For some reason Union Maj. Gen. Irvin McDowell of First Bull Run fame (?) carried an Austrian light cavalry saber, but this isn't anything like the one he carried. I believe this is for a dragoon or heavy cavalryman, and as Glen_C states is unlikely to have been used in our Civil War.

I believe the sword McDowell is shown with is either a Bavarian 1855 infantry or Austrian 1861 infantry.
http://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/civil_war_series/17/sec2.htm

I am as confused as many about the Germanic wars swords and am still looking for a long lost discussion. That prompted me to ask for some clarifications and I still can't get all the answers.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?116268-Bavarian-1855-or-Austrian-1861

Cheers

GC

 

[Glen_C]

I was remiss and I knew it was a good possibility that I had the spelling wrong. People on this site have contended that there is a connection between the biblical and military spellings, but that has been argued much and I think the conclusion was there is no connection. Im sure everyone KNEW what I ment, but I guess our brothers in arms deserve, at a minimum, correct pronunciation.

Tx

Spec

The spelling corrections that often pop up as red herrings that distract from thread topics can also lead to more misunderstandings. Some, like the spelling and meaning of cavalry

mid 16th century: from French cavallerie, from Italian cavalleria, from cavallo 'horse,' from Latin caballus .

Not as lame as calling out typos of the mind or fingers but sidebars like these distract my own stream of consciousness.

We now return to our regularly scheduled program

 

[Jobe Holiday]

I have a long-time friend who, whenever we are discussing this stuff, always says "...Calvary..." I finally asked him why he insists on "Calvary" rather than "Cavalry" His answer......"I just like seeing you wince every time I do it!"
J.

 

[James N.]

I have a long-time friend who, whenever we are discussing this stuff, always says "...Calvary..." I finally asked him why he insists on "Calvary" rather than "Cavalry" His answer......"I just like seeing you wince every time I do it!"
J.

A friend of mine claimed he couldn't hear the distinction between cavalry and Calvary so I asked him if which modern abbreviation was correct: Air Cav or Air Cal.

 

[tbuckley]

Just a thought on whether the saber may have been used in our Civil War. I'm from eastern Ohio and from the 1880s t0 the early 1920s, there were many eastern and southern European immigrants who came to the area for jobs in the mines and steel mills. Back around 1990 I helped a friend move a piece of furniture for a neighbor, an elderly lady who had been born in Italy. On the wall of the living room was an impressive full length picture of an Italian WWI cavalryman in full uniform with a saber. Probably the lady's late husband.
It may be possible that at least some odd pre-WWI military items, that could be misidentified as being Civil War relics, came here in this way.

 

[Glen_C]

After looking a good bit for this model, I think we are looking at the Austrian 1845 model. With little variation, the multiple examples I am finding with Jurmann markings are all listed as an 1845. The butt/pommel is distinctive to those examples I have found browsing www.oldswords.com This is a great site and worth the nominal subscription for browsing.

Here is one to view
http://www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/austrian-m1845-cavalry-sword.26177.archive.htm

Interestingly enough (again I don't have the book for Solingen makers) "The maker may be Carl Jurman who was a Solingen maker 1848-1868. He is known to have shipped these to Herman Boker in New York during the Civil war". This latter information abstracted from other discussions. I would again point to the fellows at http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?11-Antique-amp-Military-Sword-Forum


There appears to be a progression of the Austrian models 1845, 1850, 1858, 1861 and even further. The 1861 trooper and 1869 officer much different than the first three.


Beware the nomenclature and designations of the Cold Steel ad copy. Lynn Thompson takes more than a leisurely approach when labeling swords he "designs" a model and uses information that may (and often does not) relate the history.

Anyway, more information to ponder and another check mark in the "plausible" column for ACW use. There are an enourmous number of swords on the market that fall in the same category....but....


Cheers

GC

 

[Specster]

Just a thought on whether the saber may have been used in our Civil War. I'm from eastern Ohio and from the 1880s t0 the early 1920s, there were many eastern and southern European immigrants who came to the area for jobs in the mines and steel mills. Back around 1990 I helped a friend move a piece of furniture for a neighbor, an elderly lady who had been born in Italy. On the wall of the living room was an impressive full length picture of an Italian WWI cavalryman in full uniform with a saber. Probably the lady's late husband.
It may be possible that at least some odd pre-WWI military items, that could be misidentified as being Civil War relics, came here in this way.

I was thinking early today....I wish that sword had eyes and a mouth, I would imagine it could tell a tale -either amazing or boring.

 

[Specster]

After looking a good bit for this model, I think we are looking at the Austrian 1845 model. With little variation, the multiple examples I am finding with Jurmann markings are all listed as an 1845. The butt/pommel is distinctive to those examples I have found browsing www.oldswords.com This is a great site and worth the nominal subscription for browsing.

Here is one to view
http://www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/austrian-m1845-cavalry-sword.26177.archive.htm

Interestingly enough (again I don't have the book for Solingen makers) "The maker may be Carl Jurman who was a Solingen maker 1848-1868. He is known to have shipped these to Herman Boker in New York during the Civil war". This latter information abstracted from other discussions. I would again point to the fellows at http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?11-Antique-amp-Military-Sword-Forum


There appears to be a progression of the Austrian models 1845, 1850, 1858, 1861 and even further. The 1861 trooper and 1869 officer much different than the first three.


Beware the nomenclature and designations of the Cold Steel ad copy. Lynn Thompson takes more than a leisurely approach when labeling swords he "designs" a model and uses information that may (and often does not) relate the history.

Anyway, more information to ponder and another check mark in the "plausible" column for ACW use. There are an enourmous number of swords on the market that fall in the same category....but....


Cheers

GC

Thanks for all the hard work you did looking into this subject. You seem to know much about militaria. Do you know, even if a company were defunct......like Ames, and Cold steel produced a replica of a M1850 and engraved Ames and a year on the sword, would that be legal? Is that why you said something about accurate spelling. If any lawyers on the site read this your opinions would be valued.

Tx

 

[Glen_C]

Thanks for all the hard work you did looking into this subject. You seem to know much about militaria. Do you know, even if a company were defunct......like Ames, and Cold steel produced a replica of a M1850 and engraved Ames and a year on the sword, would that be legal? Is that why you said something about accurate spelling. If any lawyers on the site read this your opinions would be valued.

Tx

Honestly? I think a lot of copies of swords pop up. I think it is a matter of copyright, I could be wrong. A lot have become public domain. There are Clauberg non regulation eagle hilt swords. Dixie Gun Works used to carry them, may still. Some other source was selling Horstmann replicas. There are a lot of Napoleonic/1812 swords reproduced, some have quite clear names of old makers and cutlers including inspection marks. Ames reproductions abound, with the 1832 foot artillery, riflemans knife, etc. God only knows how many make Lord of the Rings stuff (some licensed). Confederate repros abound and marked to known CSA makers.

As to Cold Steel and my feelings, it is more a matter of inaccuracy of ad copy. Look at their 1917 cutlass, which is actually the WWII cutlass, not a 1917. Their 1830 Napoleonic, which is an older sword, Napoleon long gone in 1830, so more a poor choice of editing. If it was an 1816 marked to 1830, wtf, say so. They have developed swords to sell and it is a shame their swords then become how some learn about these old military swords. Some of their swords are from China, a lot more come from India and the same shops Windlass (Atlanta Cutlery, Museum Replicas) buys from.


There were some better made reproductions in the 1960s-1970s that still get listed as good, usually presentation swords. Plug fake as a search term over at SFI and you will find multiple threads.

I don't consider myself as well read as a great many others but swords are a lot of my life and the tools are there to use. My main focus is more the earlier American swords.

Cheers

GC

 

[Specster]

Honestly? I think a lot of copies of swords pop up. I think it is a matter of copyright, I could be wrong. A lot have become public domain. There are Clauberg non regulation eagle hilt swords. Dixie Gun Works used to carry them, may still. Some other source was selling Horstmann replicas. There are a lot of Napoleonic/1812 swords reproduced, some have quite clear names of old makers and cutlers including inspection marks. Ames reproductions abound, with the 1832 foot artillery, riflemans knife, etc. God only knows how many make Lord of the Rings stuff (some licensed). Confederate repros abound and marked to known CSA makers.

As to Cold Steel and my feelings, it is more a matter of inaccuracy of ad copy. Look at their 1917 cutlass, which is actually the WWII cutlass, not a 1917. Their 1830 Napoleonic, which is an older sword, Napoleon long gone in 1830, so more a poor choice of editing. If it was an 1816 marked to 1830, wtf, say so. They have developed swords to sell and it is a shame their swords then become how some learn about these old military swords. Some of their swords are from China, a lot more come from India and the same shops Windlass (Atlanta Cutlery, Museum Replicas) buys from.


There were some better made reproductions in the 1960s-1970s that still get listed as good, usually presentation swords. Plug fake as a search term over at SFI and you will find multiple threads.

I don't consider myself as well read as a great many others but swords are a lot of my life and the tools are there to use. My main focus is more the earlier American swords.

Cheers

GC

Relicman has established a website where he has catalogued civil war items he has found to be fakes. It is by no means all encompassing but it is a great idea and a good start:
http://www.relicman.com/fakes/zfakeWeaponAAA.htm

 

[James N.]

Relicman has established a website where he has catalogued civil war items he has found to be fakes. It is by no means all encompassing but it is a great idea and a good start:
http://www.relicman.com/fakes/zfakeWeaponAAA.htm

Unfortunately this barely scratches the surface; all shown fall into the category my late friend and sword mentor termed blatant fakes: He said there were fakes; and then there were blatant fakes like these. This is good general information for absolute novices to help picking out what is also called Chinese junk (like the boats of that name!); unfortunately, the fakers of fifty and more years ago were usually more subtle and it's their work that is more likely to seriously burn any collector, especially in the realm of Confederate militaria.

 

[Specster]

Unfortunately this barely scratches the surface; all shown fall into the category my late friend and sword mentor termed blatant fakes: He said there were fakes; and then there were blatant fakes like these. This is good general information for absolute novices to help picking out what is also called Chinese junk (like the boats of that name!); unfortunately, the fakers of fifty and more years ago were usually more subtle and it's their work that is more likely to seriously burn any collector, especially in the realm of Confederate militaria.

Those "Centennial" fakes several people have alluded to, being described as higher quality, were these created by individuals in their own machine shops or were they mass produced? Beyond workmanship, I guess a 50 year old item would have some decent patina, especially if someone left it out in weather for a few years.

 

[James N.]

Those "Centennial" fakes several people have alluded to, being described as higher quality, were these created by individuals in their own machine shops or were they mass produced? Beyond workmanship, I guess a 50 year old item would have some decent patina, especially if someone left it out in weather for a few years.

Sorry to be responding SO late to this Specster, but I hadn't noticed it before now!

Most of what I'm referring to were created by individuals with the deliberate intent to defraud the unwary. Sometimes (especially in the 1940's and 50's) actual genuine Confederate swords - which had relatively little value then - were "improved" by the addition of fake inscriptions or blade etching to "bump" their value; both Union and Confederate revolvers were done the same way with fake inscriptions or names engraved on backstraps, etc. One particular large-scale fraud I'm aware of however concerned the merchandise offered by a certain Missouri dealer called House of Swords and Militaria in his catalog which always unfailingly contained "rarities". This was somewhat later, in the late 1970's as I remember.