Johnston and Lee

[Horse_Artillery_23]

Every Appomattox campaign history refers to Lee's goal of linking up with Johnston. Given the general situation it was a logical strategy.....but....how would such a merger of commands look? Can Johnston and Lee's personas be in the same "small" army together?

Of course it never happened....yet the idea of it in framing the campaign is interesting to me. The question I ask myself is just how interested either Lee or Johnston was in such a juncture.... and if at what point the idea was realized to be impossible.

 

[TallTallMan]

Johnston's more cautious approach would've grinded against Lee's. Considering Joe couldn't get along with, basically, anyone, he would've whined and complained every time Bobby said anything. (Especially since he was now Joe boss.) Considering Bobby got along with everyone he may've been able to charm Joe, but no doubt the latter would've been a pest to that hot-blooded old man.

As you all know I'm a Johnston fan, but that doesn't mean I think he was perfect!

 

[Stryker65]

Lee and Johnston were friends, IIRC. I think Lee would have no trouble with Johnston, or even Beauregard, but I would fear more for Longstreet, his men, and the AoT troops. Longstreet got caught up in the anti-Bragg cabal after Chickamauga, so I would think that maybe they wouldn't get along.

 

[jackt62]

Lee' last forlorn hope after withdrawing from his Petersburg lines was to keep his army intact by keeping one step ahead of the enemy, thereby seeking to unite with the only other significant Confederate force in North Carolina. Given the low expectation that the ANV could escape the AotP hot on its heels, I doubt very much that Lee would have spent any time considering how those forces would have coalesced and merged.

 

[Stryker65]

Lee' last forlorn hope after withdrawing from his Petersburg lines was to keep his army intact by keeping one step ahead of the enemy, thereby seeking to unite with the only other significant Confederate force in North Carolina. Given the low expectation that the ANV could escape the AotP hot on its heels, I doubt very much that Lee would have spent any time considering how those forces would have coalesced and merged.

I think it's more about how the overall command would've worked. Johnston, Lee, Beauregard ... three very different commanders. Lee would of course be in command, but he and Johnston had very different ideas for how to fight with an army. Johnston was more like Longstreet, a sort of "defense warfare" strategist.

 

[Horse_Artillery_23]

Lee and Johnston were friends, IIRC. I think Lee would have no trouble with Johnston, or even Beauregard, but I would fear more for Longstreet, his men, and the AoT troops. Longstreet got caught up in the anti-Bragg cabal after Chickamauga, so I would think that maybe they wouldn't get along.

Longstreet is a solid point

 

[Horse_Artillery_23]

I think it's more about how the overall command would've worked. Johnston, Lee, Beauregard ... three very different commanders. Lee would of course be in command, but he and Johnston had very different ideas for how to fight with an army. Johnston was more like Longstreet, a sort of "defense warfare" strategist.

Exactly....lets assume it does happen and somehow both armies work on an organizational level.....does a Lee / Johnston/ Longstreet combo work.....I suspect it would be difficult and likely as two "seperated commands rather than one field army....until it had to become one.

 

[wausaubob]

Lee' last forlorn hope after withdrawing from his Petersburg lines was to keep his army intact by keeping one step ahead of the enemy, thereby seeking to unite with the only other significant Confederate force in North Carolina. Given the low expectation that the ANV could escape the AotP hot on its heels, I doubt very much that Lee would have spent any time considering how those forces would have coalesced and merged.

If General Sherman had faced the combined forces of Lee and Johnston his best move would have been to fall back on Wilmington. He would have been wise to take cover under the range of the navy's big guns and wait for Grant's army to appear. The Army of the Potomac would have needed to resupply before venturing into North Carolina. But as along as forage could be delivered to Wilmington, Sheridan's cavalry could have been united with Sherman faster than the infantry. North Carolina was devastated by 1865. I doubt the Confederates could have subsisted their combined armies for long. I think General Lee knew the soldiers were on the brink of starvation.

 

[Horse_Artillery_23]

If General Sherman had faced the combined forces of Lee and Johnston his best move would have been to fall back on Wilmington. He would have been wise to take cover under the range of the navy's big guns and wait for Grant's army to appear. The Army of the Potomac would have needed to resupply before venturing into North Carolina. But as along as forage could be delivered to Wilmington, Sheridan's cavalry could have been united with Sherman faster than the infantry. North Carolina was devastated by 1865. I doubt the Confederates could have subsisted their combined armies for long. I think General Lee knew the soldiers were on the brink of starvation.

I agree......perhaps the war is extended another few weeks....perhaps there is a final battle....or....Grant/Sherman/Sheridan out manuever Lee/Johnston and you have an Appomattox in NC somewhere.....I am not normally a what if person....but this one always has me thinking.

 

[Irishtom29]

The armies of the James and Potomac would've been on Lee's heels and in a state of constant contact with him unless Lee's army was moved by the Spacing Guild. There's simply no reasonable scenario for Lee getting to Johnston. And even if he had Uncle Billy had 5 veteran corps and could'a pitched right in. Both insurgent armies would have been in a cauldron formed by 9 or 10 Federal corps (2nd, 5th, 6th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd and 24th) a cauldron like those of Barbarossa in 1941.

 

[Stryker65]

Not to mention, the Army of the Cumberland was in the Blue Ridge, just past the North Carolina border. I would think Johnston would try to fortify the Charlotte/Salisbury region, but with Thomas's army coming over the mountains that would be impractical, so most likely they'd use Sherman's retreat to Wilmington to try to get out through SC? No idea how that would work, but it'd be the only way not blocked by at least one Union army.

 

[Irishtom29]

Not to mention, the Army of the Cumberland was in the Blue Ridge, just past the North Carolina border. I would think Johnston would try to fortify the Charlotte/Salisbury region, but with Thomas's army coming over the mountains that would be impractical, so most likely they'd use Sherman's retreat to Wilmington to try to get out through SC? No idea how that would work, but it'd be the only way not blocked by at least one Union army.

But why would Sherman retreat? By keeping contact with Johnston and with Grant on Lee's heels he forms an anvil and Grant the hammer. Or vice versa. Anyway the enemy armies would be forming in a trap--when Lee arrives so does Grant.

 

[wausaubob]

The armies of the James and Potomac would've been on Lee's heels and in a state of constant contact with him unless Lee's army was moved by the Spacing Guild. There's simply no reasonable scenario for Lee getting to Johnston. And even if he had Uncle Billy had 5 veteran corps and could'a pitched right in. Both insurgent armies would have been in a cauldron formed by 9 or 10 Federal corps (2nd, 5th, 6th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd and 24th) a cauldron like those of Barbarossa in 1941.

I think the federal army was going to have wait for its logistical support to catch up by the time it got to Appomattox. That would not have taken long. Lee might have gained a week if the been resupplied at Appomattox.

 

[Horse_Artillery_23]

The armies of the James and Potomac would've been on Lee's heels and in a state of constant contact with him unless Lee's army was moved by the Spacing Guild. There's simply no reasonable scenario for Lee getting to Johnston. And even if he had Uncle Billy had 5 veteran corps and could'a pitched right in. Both insurgent armies would have been in a cauldron formed by 9 or 10 Federal corps (2nd, 5th, 6th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 20th, 23rd and 24th) a cauldron like those of Barbarossa in 1941.

That was always my thought.....was it even realistic for Lee to even try to march to NC? I think it looks good on paper....but not practical.

 

[JerryD]

Lee and Johnston were friends, IIRC. I think Lee would have no trouble with Johnston, or even Beauregard, but I would fear more for Longstreet, his men, and the AoT troops. Longstreet got caught up in the anti-Bragg cabal after Chickamauga, so I would think that maybe they wouldn't get along.

Longstreet and Johnston actually got along very well. On the Peninsula before he was wounded, Longstreet was a top lieutenant and trusted advisor to Johnston, and later during the war I know there was very friendly correspondence between the two. I dont think that would have been an issue at all.

 

[JerryD]

Johnston's more cautious approach would've grinded against Lee's. Considering Joe couldn't get along with, basically, anyone, he would've whined and complained every time Bobby said anything. (Especially since he was now Joe boss.) Considering Bobby got along with everyone he may've been able to charm Joe, but no doubt the latter would've been a pest to that hot-blooded old man.

As you all know I'm a Johnston fan, but that doesn't mean I think he was perfect!

I think you are being a little too tough on Johnston. Other than Davis (and possibly Hood), who did Johnston not get along with? My understanding is that he was very popular with the troops and with senior officers.

I tend to think Johnston would have recognized that Lee was at that point appointed as General in Chief of all CSA armies and would have been a good subordinate to this long time friend (and yes, rival).

 

[JerryD]

I think the federal army was going to have wait for its logistical support to catch up by the time it got to Appomattox. That would not have taken long. Lee might have gained a week if the been resupplied at Appomattox.

The reality is, both armies were running on fumes by the time they got to Appomattox, but especially the ANV. If we look at this situation realistically, there was simply no way Lee was getting away. Any rest the AOP took would have been as short as anything Lee needed for the ANV.

 

[wausaubob]

But why would Sherman retreat? By keeping contact with Johnston and with Grant on Lee's heels he forms an anvil and Grant the hammer. Or vice versa. Anyway the enemy armies would be forming in a trap--when Lee arrives so does Grant.

Sherman would retreat because he does not want a battle without the Potomac army being present. The additional factor is that with Wilmington closed to blockade runners, and the state of the Confederate railroads by 1865, the Confederate armies might dissolve due to commissary shortages, without the need for further bloodshed. With the Richmond government fleeing to some unknown destination, would the ordinary Confederate soldier be willing to fight the growing US armies?

 

[Irishtom29]

I think the federal army was going to have wait for its logistical support to catch up by the time it got to Appomattox. That would not have taken long. Lee might have gained a week if the been resupplied at Appomattox.

Well Bob, you have to add up a lot of ifs. In the real event Grant was right on Lee's *** and even if the Federals hadn't headed Lee off and captured his trains had he stopped running long enough to resupply Grant could have piled right in on him.

Regards

 

[Stryker65]

Longstreet and Johnston actually got along very well. On the Peninsula before he was wounded, Longstreet was a top lieutenant and trusted advisor to Johnston, and later during the war I know there was very friendly correspondence between the two. I dont think that would have been an issue at all.

No, I know they'd get along, and that could be a problem. Johnston and Longstreet had very similar ways of thinking tactically, and that could present a problem when devising plans with Lee, the latter being more of an offensive attacker.