Jeb Stuart and D. H. Hill

[ErnieMac]

I am currently reading D. Scott Hartwig's book To Antietam: The Maryland Campaign of September 1862. While discussing Confederate preparations to defend South Mountain against McClellan's sudden show of aggressiveness, Hartwig notes that during the early morning hours of September 14 D. H. Hill sent one of his brigade commanders, Roswell Ripley, to discuss with Stuart the area around Turner's Gap that Hill was to defend. Hartwig then postulates as to why Hill sent Ripley. He notes the possibility that Hill did not like Stuart and also suggests that, based on Stuart's report on the Maryland Campaign, that Stuart did not care for Hill either. Hartwig also states that is was also possible that Hill was to busy at the time.

Stuart did state in his report that "I had not, up to this time, seen General D. H. Hill, but about midnight he sent General Ripley to me to get information concerning totals and gaps in a locality where General Hill had been lying for two days with his command." Stuart then proceeds to say that he spent some time explaining what he new to Ripley over maps of the area. I can see this could be read as a verbal dig at Hill.

This is the first I recall having heard of any bad felling between D. H. Hill and Stuart. I'd appreciate any information on the Hill - Stuart relation. Do any of you think this may have contributed to Hill's departure from the ANV in early 1863?

 

[rpkennedy]

I am currently reading D. Scott Hartwig's book To Antietam: The Maryland Campaign of September 1862. While discussing Confederate preparations to defend South Mountain against McClellan's sudden show of aggressiveness, Hartwig notes that during the early morning hours of September 14 D. H. Hill sent one of his brigade commanders, Roswell Ripley, to discuss with Stuart the area around Turner's Gap that Hill was to defend. Hartwig then postulates as to why Hill sent Ripley. He notes the possibility that Hill did not like Stuart and also suggests that, based on Stuart's report on the Maryland Campaign, that Stuart did not care for Hill either. Hartwig also states that is was also possible that Hill was to busy at the time.

Stuart did state in his report that "I had not, up to this time, seen General D. H. Hill, but about midnight he sent General Ripley to me to get information concerning totals and gaps in a locality where General Hill had been lying for two days with his command." Stuart then proceeds to say that he spent some time explaining what he new to Ripley over maps of the area. I can see this could be read as a verbal dig at Hill.

This is the first I recall having heard of any bad felling between D. H. Hill and Stuart. I'd appreciate any information on the Hill - Stuart relation. Do any of you think this may have contributed to Hill's departure from the ANV in early 1863?

Hill was transferred because he had trouble getting along with almost everyone not named Thomas Jackson, and that includes Robert E. Lee. It wouldn't surprise me if Hill and Stuart didn't like one another.

Ryan

 

[ErnieMac]

No doubt Hill was a very difficult individual, but most of his issues are well documented. I've have not seen anything concerning his issues with Stuart.

 

[MHB1862]

Hill was transferred because he had trouble getting along with almost everyone not named Thomas Jackson, and that includes Robert E. Lee. It wouldn't surprise me if Hill and Stuart didn't like one another.

Ryan

Moxley Sorrel echoed this point in At the Right Hand of Longstreet. It seems that Harvey was like Mikey in the old cereal commercial. He hated everyone and from all accounts I have read the feeling was returned. Only Jackson escaped his ire. Brother in laws answer to higher powers in all things related to domestic relations.
Sorrel went so far as to say Harvey was always a hard fighter when he went into action but that his resolve failed after engaged. There was certainly no evidence of that at the Sunken Road at Sharpsburg. Sorrel also noted that Harvey was among the bravest of men.

 

[Miles Krisman]

I am currently reading D. Scott Hartwig's book To Antietam: The Maryland Campaign of September 1862. While discussing Confederate preparations to defend South Mountain against McClellan's sudden show of aggressiveness, Hartwig notes that during the early morning hours of September 14 D. H. Hill sent one of his brigade commanders, Roswell Ripley, to discuss with Stuart the area around Turner's Gap that Hill was to defend. Hartwig then postulates as to why Hill sent Ripley. He notes the possibility that Hill did not like Stuart and also suggests that, based on Stuart's report on the Maryland Campaign, that Stuart did not care for Hill either. Hartwig also states that is was also possible that Hill was to busy at the time.

Stuart did state in his report that "I had not, up to this time, seen General D. H. Hill, but about midnight he sent General Ripley to me to get information concerning totals and gaps in a locality where General Hill had been lying for two days with his command." Stuart then proceeds to say that he spent some time explaining what he new to Ripley over maps of the area. I can see this could be read as a verbal dig at Hill.

This is the first I recall having heard of any bad felling between D. H. Hill and Stuart. I'd appreciate any information on the Hill - Stuart relation. Do any of you think this may have contributed to Hill's departure from the ANV in early 1863?

Author Hal Bridges provides some insight into the situation at Boonsboro and the relationship between Hill and Stuart, in his book "Lee's Maverick General - Daniel Harvey Hill". (pages 100 - 105)

"At Boonsborough, Harvey Hill got his first hint of danger on September 13. About noon. while he and Colquitt were engaged in reconnaissance around Boonsborough, a courier rode up with a message from Stuart. Two Federal brigades were pressing him back toward the eastern foot of South Mountain, wrote Stuart. Could Hill send one of his brigades up to Turner's Gap to help hold it? Hill ordered Colquitt to move immediately to the gap with his brigade and four guns, and because the brigades were now small he also sent Garland's together with another four-gun battery. To his other three commanders went orders to concentrate near Boonsborough.
While Hill watched, Colquitt formed his troops in marching column and led them from Boonsborough on the National road, which ran southeastward through the town and rose over the thousand-foot, northward coursing ridge of South Mountain, crossing it through Turner's Gap, a depression several hundred feet deep. About two miles from town Colquitt reached the Mountain House, a tollhouse at the apex of the gap, and here he found Stuart, calmly watching as his cavalry retreated up the mountain before the advancing enemy.
Colquitt hurriedly disposed his troops to right and left of the turnpike, and the display of infantry and artillery stopped the Federals at the base of the mountain. Night approached, with no sign that they would attack. Colquitt discussed the situation with Stuart, and suggested that his infantry could continue to hold the turnpike while the cavalry guarded roads on either side of it. Many years later, he recalled Stuart's reply: He informed me that he could not remain - that he should move with his cavalry towards Harper's Ferry - that I would have no difficulty in holding my position - that the enemy's forces, he thought, consisted of cavalry and one or two brigades of infantry.
After this conversation, Stuart led his cavalrymen down the mountain to Boonsborough to spend the night. He did indeed plan to move towards Harper's Ferry the next morning - more specifically to Crampton's Gap, some five miles south of Turner's in a straight line......"

So Stuart underestimated the enemy forces, which would have serious consequences. He also was uncommunicative with the commanding General - Hill. Bridges goes on to say:

"There is also the possibility that full and free communication was lacking that night at Boonsborough because of the strained relationships between Hill and Stuart that had developed early in the war at Leesburg."

 

[Bruce Vail]

Interesting.

The fact that Hill sent Ripley to meet Stuart may tell us something. Ripley was not a trusted subordinate of Hill, and would be removed from command immediately after Antietam. In later years, Hill would verbally abuse Ripley as a coward.

 

[ErnieMac]

A

Interesting.

The fact that Hill sent Ripley to meet Stuart may tell us something. Ripley was not a trusted subordinate of Hill, and would be removed from command immediately after Antietam. In later years, Hill would verbally abuse Ripley as a coward.

Also consider that Ripley's Brigade was not one of the first ones sent to the gaps.

 

[Bruce Vail]

A

Also consider that Ripley's Brigade was not one of the first ones sent to the gaps.

FYI - I checked off something from my bucket list this July 4 weekend. By brother and I drove up to the Mountain House and then walked the .8 mile trail from Turner's Gap to Fox's Gap, tracing the route of Ripley's Brigade on the old Summit Road (now the Appalachian Trail). We continued to the NC monument at Fox's Gap, and then returned to the car, making a 2 mile round trip hike.

I wanted to enjoy a drink in the bar of the Old South Mountain Inn but it was closed that day. I am hoping to do the hike again on a cool fall day when the bar is open.

 

[James N.]

... This is the first I recall having heard of any bad felling between D. H. Hill and Stuart. I'd appreciate any information on the Hill - Stuart relation. Do any of you think this may have contributed to Hill's departure from the ANV in early 1863?

Hill was definitely a member of the "Whoever saw a dead cavalryman?" school, and at Chickamauga he supposedly made a point of congratulating Nathan Bedford Forrest on his use of his cavalry as mounted infantry actually fighting on the line of battle. He was also usually terse and caustic when dealing with others, as in his famous refusal of a musician's request for leave upon which he supposedly wrote "Shooters before tooters."

 

[Bruce Vail]

I checked Hill's official report for this action, and he just blandly states that Stuart's initial estimate of Yankee strength was way off. In this report, most of Hill's venom seems directed at Longstreet.

 

[James N.]

FYI - I checked off something from my bucket list this July 4 weekend. By brother and I drove up to the Mountain House and then walked the .8 mile trail from Turner's Gap to Fox's Gap, tracing the route of Ripley's Brigade on the old Summit Road (now the Appalachian Trail). We continued to the NC monument at Fox's Gap, and then returned to the car, making a 2 mile round trip hike.

I wanted to enjoy a drink in the bar of the Old South Mountain Inn but it was closed that day. I am hoping to do the hike again on a cool fall day when the bar is open.

Congratulations, Bruce! I haven't made the entire hike myself but have made the trek from the main Fox's Gap parking area to the North Carolina Monument below. I had wanted for YEARS to get into the Old South Mountain Inn ever since I first saw it decades ago (and even flew OVER it once!) and if you've never been - DON'T BOTHER! It was closed for vacation when I took the above photo too, but turned out to be a HUGE disappointment last September when I finally visited: it's been totally remodeled inside and has all the charm and "historicity" of your neighborhood McDonalds! It seems the current owners prefer to use the covered outside seating, ignoring the bland historic inn altogether, though I requested a seat inside which turned out to have NO charm whatsoever. (I totally forget whatever it was I ate there too.) I'm sure at some time in the now-dim past it had the atmosphere of the real colonial-era inn it is; but, alas - no more!

 

[Bruce Vail]

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Congratulations, Bruce! I haven't made the entire hike myself but have made the trek from the main Fox's Gap parking area to the North Carolina Monument below. I had wanted for YEARS to get into the Old South Mountain Inn ever since I first saw it decades ago (and even flew OVER it once!) and if you've never been - DON'T BOTHER! It was closed for vacation when I took the above photo too, but turned out to be a HUGE disappointment last September when I finally visited: it's been totally remodeled inside and has all the charm and "historicity" of your neighborhood McDonalds! It seems the current owners prefer to use the covered outside seating, ignoring the bland historic inn altogether, though I requested a seat inside which turned out to have NO charm whatsoever. (I totally forget whatever it was I ate there too.) I'm sure at some time in the now-dim past it had the atmosphere of the real colonial-era inn it is; but, alas - no more!

View attachment 150836

Thanks for the tip! A little disappointing, yes. You know, I was peering into the windows when I was up there and thinking to myself: "Gee, this doesn't look very nice. I hope they have a better sett-up in the back somewhere."

Any suggestions for a genuine historic inn to visit up in that neck of the woods? There seems to be a lot of that kind of stuff around there.

 

[Bruce Vail]

FYI - Gen. Hill wrote a full-length article about the South Mountain battle for The Century magazine about 1885. You can find it free on line.

It's pretty interesting if this kind of military minutia is your thing.

 

[James N.]

Thanks for the tip! A little disappointing, yes. You know, I was peering into the windows when I was up there and thinking to myself: "Gee, this doesn't look very nice. I hope they have a better sett-up in the back somewhere."

Any suggestions for a genuine historic inn to visit up in that neck of the woods? There seems to be a lot of that kind of stuff around there.

For a place to stay, I can recommend the Jacob Rohrbach Inn B&B in downtown Sharpsburg: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/jacob-rohrbach-inn-b-b-sharpsburg-maryland.127699/

Dining's more of a problem, but a more modern place I recommend is the Bavarian Inn in Shepherdstown, W. Va., right on the Potomac River and across from the Ferry Hill estate owned during the war by the family of Henry Kyd Douglas of Stonewall Jackson's staff. The Bavarian Inn is a large modern motel complex with a large German restaurant where I've eaten twice, once on their expansive patio with its view of Ferry Hill just across the river:

If you want to go farther south into Virginia's Shenandoah Valley I'd recommend the Wayside Inn at Middleton south of Winchester on the Cedar Creek battlefield, though last time I visited it's fate was somewhat in question making inqueries beforehand a must: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/wayside-inn-middleton-virginia-sleep-where-generals-slept.118333/

 

[ErnieMac]

"There is also the possibility that full and free communication was lacking that night at Boonsborough because of the strained relationships between Hill and Stuart that had developed early in the war at Leesburg."

Thank you for the Leesburg reference. I found the following in the Official Records (Series 1, Volume V, pages 1060 - 1061). I can definitely see that Stuart would view Hill less than favorably if he was aware of this or other similar communiques. I also don't sense Hill was one to rethink his opinions about a person once he had formed them, but may your readings indicate otherwise

RICHMOND, February 6, 1862.

General JOSEPH E. JOHNSTON:.
GENERAL: I have the honor to acknowledge yours of the 3rd instant, with its inclosures.

**********
The letter of General Hill painfully impresses me with that which has heretofore been indicated - a want of vigilance and intelligent observation on the part of General Stuart. The officers commanding his pickets should be notified of all roads in their neighborhood, and sleepless watchfulness should be required of them. The failure to secure either of these two things renders them worse than useless to the commands which rely upon them for timely notice of the approach of an enemy.

**********
Very respectfully, yours,
JEFFERSON DAVIS.​

 

[MHB1862]

I'm currently rereading Sorrel's At the Right Hand of Longstreet. Interesting to note that Sorrel was of the opinion that Hill and Jackson were not of the best of terms. Seems like nobody could get along with Harvey.

 

[rpkennedy]

I'm currently rereading Sorrel's At the Right Hand of Longstreet. Interesting to note that Sorrel was of the opinion that Hill and Jackson were not of the best of terms. Seems like nobody could get along with Harvey.

Hill's biting wit, and he was a wit, seems to have rubbed most everyone the wrong way. Jackson just didn't take Hill's sarcastic jibes personally but rather brushed them off. There does seem to have been genuine affection between the two.

Ryan

 

[Miles Krisman]

Hill's biting wit, and he was a wit, seems to have rubbed most everyone the wrong way. Jackson just didn't take Hill's sarcastic jibes personally but rather brushed them off. There does seem to have been genuine affection between the two.

Ryan

They were related through marriage.......brother-in-laws.

 

[Bruce Vail]

They were related through marriage.......brother-in-laws.

Yes, I have seen several discussions of the relationship between the two men and it seems to have been based primarily on the wives -- they were two sisters, Isabella Morrison Hill and Mary Anna Morrison Jackson.

Of course there was also a shared military career. They were both West Point graduates and were both veterans of the War with Mexico. Further, they both had spent some time as instructors at colleges in Lexington. Va. Hill had taught at Washington College (now Washington & Lee University) while Jackson taught at nearby Virginia Military Institute. Their teaching careers in Lexington overlapped, so the two men were well known to one another at the start of the Civil War.

 

[Bruce Vail]

For a place to stay, I can recommend the Jacob Rohrbach Inn B&B in downtown Sharpsburg: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/jacob-rohrbach-inn-b-b-sharpsburg-maryland.127699/
View attachment 150957

Dining's more of a problem, but a more modern place I recommend is the Bavarian Inn in Shepherdstown, W. Va., right on the Potomac River and across from the Ferry Hill estate owned during the war by the family of Henry Kyd Douglas of Stonewall Jackson's staff. The Bavarian Inn is a large modern motel complex with a large German restaurant where I've eaten twice, once on their expansive patio with its view of Ferry Hill just across the river:

View attachment 150956

If you want to go farther south into Virginia's Shenandoah Valley I'd recommend the Wayside Inn at Middleton south of Winchester on the Cedar Creek battlefield, though last time I visited it's fate was somewhat in question making inqueries beforehand a must: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/wayside-inn-middleton-virginia-sleep-where-generals-slept.118333/

View attachment 150960

Thanks. I am definitely making a mental note of the Wayfarer Inn. This looks exactly like the kind of thing I was hoping for with Old South Mountain Inn....