Iuka - Victory as Failure

[Nathan Towne]

In which the Army of the West, per the conception of the plan, as they knew that they were coming at this point, would have slipped away to the east via Bear Creek.

 

[DanSBHawk]

In which the Army of the West, per the conception of the plan, as they knew that they were coming at this point, would have slipped away to the east via Bear Creek.

...on some mysterious secret route that no one seems to know about.

 

[Nathan Towne]

Completely untrue. Such was shown already to you from the earlier correspondence denoting a road running east of Iuka and we have it identified on nineteenth century maps.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Completely untrue. Such was shown already to you from the earlier correspondence denoting a road running east of Iuka and we have it identified on nineteenth century maps.

The only references in these threads to federal troops operating east of Iuka and Bear Creek, that I recall, did not specify any kind of road. They could well have been moving over Bear Creek on the railroad bridge.

Provide details on this alleged road.

 

[Nathan Towne]

Wait, what? You had previously dug in on that all bridges were out along Bear Creek based on Grant's recollection in his Memoirs.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Wait, what? You had previously dug in on that all bridges were out along Bear Creek based on Grant's recollection in his Memoirs.

Yes, Grant wrote that all the bridges in the vicinity over Bear Creek were out. And that is supported by Dodge's experience in the following Spring.

So you not only need to find evidence of a road going directly east from Iuka, but also find evidence that it had an intact bridge.

 

[DanSBHawk]

...because the main stage road from Eastport to Fulton intersected with the road east a mile east of Iuka.

You've mentioned this before about the Fulton Road actually going north-south about a mile east of Iuka. So in order for the confederates to retreat down the Fulton Road, they may have first retreated eastward before heading south?

"...massing heavily on the Fulton road, and crushing in their left and cutting off their retreat eastward."

I'm wondering if this part of Rosecrans message has nothing to do with crossing Bear Creek anywhere, but in fact refers to the confederates retreating east out of Iuka in order to reach the Fulton Road.

 

[1SGDan]

How much Grant liked the plan would make for an interesting topic that way. I think that it would be a very difficult one to come to any definitive position on that way. We do know that he approved it.

As the senior officer involved his approval says all it needs to.

 

[1SGDan]

Well, the issue was not merely covering the Jacinto and Fulton roads. We know that. The objective was to strike the Confederate force and deprive them of the ability to pull back to the east via Bear Creek. We know that.

No we don't know or agree with that. The objective of the pre-operational plan was the destruction of Price's force. His plan if properly executed would have left Price no other course of retreat but to the east and that a difficult one.

 

[Nathan Towne]

The plan, as detailed by Rosecrans, was to cut off the ability of the Army of the West to move out of Iuka, either to the south, to the east via Bear Creek, or to the north (or obviously to the west, which wasn't considered a serious threat, for obvious reasons). We do know that.

No, it was not necessary to move a mile eastwards out of Iuka to reach the Fulton road.

As can be seen above, another reversal on the bridge claim has come about just several hours after the last one.

No, the correspondence pertaining to crushing in the Confederate left dealt specifically with the ability of the Army of the West to pull out of Iuka eastwards, as is obvious to anyone reading the relevant correspondence. That assertion can't be reconciled with the available record and hence must essentially be dismissed.

 

[Nathan Towne]

No we don't know or agree with that. The objective of the pre-operational plan was the destruction of Price's force. His plan if properly executed would have left Price no other course of retreat but to the east and that a difficult one.

Again, the views which you held have been put out there. I agree that you have expressed your views.

 

[1SGDan]

We do know that

That is what he said but his plan if executed correctly reduced Price's options to fight on three fronts with no other option but to retreat to the east. We know that. As it turned out the pre-operational plan fell apart for the reasons that I enumerated and left Price the option of retiring south instead of the east because the Fulton Road was left uncovered. History tells us that.

 

[1SGDan]

Again, your views are out there. I agree that you have expressed your views.

No more out there than yours.

 

[Nathan Towne]

I agree with that that was the plan as was formulated and expressed. That is what was said and I agree with you there. It is good that you recognize such.

Return to Post #69 regarding the move up the Jacinto road.

 

[DanSBHawk]

No, it was not necessary to move a mile eastwards out of Iuka to reach the Fulton road.

As can be seen above, another reversal on the bridge claim has come about just several hours after the last one.

No, the correspondence pertaining to crushing in the Confederate left dealt specifically with the ability of the Army of the West to pull out of Iuka eastwards, as is obvious to anyone reading the relevant correspondence. That assertion can't be reconciled with the available record and hence is easily dismissible.

The Fulton Road ran north-south a mile east of Iuka. So to get to the Fulton Road, it was necessary to move eastward. Considering that neither Grant nor Rosecrans stated anything after the battle about having concerns that the confederates would escape east over Bear Creek, I am suspecting that Rosecrans remark about cutting off "their retreat eastward" was about cutting off their retreat from Iuka to reach the Fulton Road.

Nothing has been reversed on my end regarding roads or bridges. It has been continually suggested by you that a confederate retreat to the east across Bear Creek was likely. But so far, no road has been identified and no intact bridge been identified. There needs to be a route identified before judging how likely it was to have been used.

 

[Nathan Towne]

The above is erroneous. It was not necessary to move out the road running east from Iuka in order to reach the Fulton road.

Post #144 above acknowledged the previous crossing of U.S. forces across Bear Creek. The comment pertaining to bridging reversed the earlier position held, which has been reversed again. The whole thing is too exhausting. I am interested in serious historical inquiry.

 

[DanSBHawk]

As Tony has already covered, the actual Fulton Road runs north-south a mile east of Iuka. The road that is labelled "Fulton Road" on maps of the Battle of Iuka is actually a connecting road to the Fulton Road. In order to reach the actual Fulton Road, it is necessary to move in an eastward direction. Either east or south-east.

I have certainly not reversed any position regarding bridges. Of course there was a railroad bridge. That has been repeatedly mentioned, and is completely obvious. There has not been any proof of road bridges that were intact during this time in this vicinity.

 

[DanSBHawk]

1SGDan posted this earlier in the thread and I agreed with him: "Had the Fulton Road been closed Price's only option for retreat would have been to the east down the rail bed."

It's always been acknowledged that there was a railroad bridge.

 

[Nathan Towne]

The above comment is erroneous. I am well aware that the connecting road was not the Fulton road, but it was not necessary to move out the road running to the east in order to reach the Fulton road.

Circled in red is what is assuredly the Fulton Road. Circled in blue is the road network running down towards what can certainly be identified as the Fulton Road. Circled in Orange is the connecting road. Highlighted in black is road and railroad running east out of Iuka.

Your statement regarding the railroad bridge is interesting. Please provide your evidence that it was up. Grant, in his Memoirs, which is the source which you were putting worth as the basis for your understanding of events makes no such distinction.

 

[DanSBHawk]

First, your map is from far later than the Civil War. But putting that aside, it clearly shows that the Fulton Road is east of Iuka, and you have to go east or southeast to get to it from Iuka.