Influences,the"first modern war"

The ACW was NOT the first in which RR were used.
The ACW was NOT the first to use a submarine.
The ACW was NOT the first to use modern entrenchments.
The ACW was NOT the first to see black men under arms.
Forrest did NOT revolutionize warfare by his raiding tactics.
The list could go on but suffice it to say the US was NOT the center of military advancement and invention in the 19th Century.

Our ACW may not have been war for many first military innovations but it was the first to use them all inclusive in persecuting the war. By using these military innovations all inclusive in pursuing thier military goals modern industrialized warfare was created...I like how some of the members want to play down our ACW effect on military history but it can not be denied. The Europeans powers following the our ACW played down its achievements in the decades following it only to live its nightmare in 1914.

A muse....
 
The Chineese rebellion or so called I believe "Boxer rebellion" interested nobody because of the crude way it was fought by any standards at that time. These people(population) really believed in mystical or magic powers or even flying around as we see in the movies today by the Boxer's who of course played on these fears, the country ruled by the ultra powerfull Empress Dowager of the time,nobody to be trifeled with for 50 years a ruthless very intelligent woman in a man's world trying to get rid of the "Foreign Devils" and or then controlling the opium trade though denying it.
I believe the war or idea of a war of "howling amateurs" to be very true but as time past this changed. With Cavalry I think there was a debate because it was a legitimate topic. What was it really turning into? The old becoming outdated with their supporters the new as with the English later seeing it in a whole new more versatile dynamic way. All of this a facinating conversation with different opinions depending on of course who is asked. Opinions later did differ wildly on the subject of the ACW and ideas military or otherwise and I have learned much here for sure. thanx Ben
 
There are certain principles in warfare that have not changed since Adam was chased out of Eden. One is sneak up on them. (Forrest's, "Hit them where they ain't.") Another is deception. (Magruder's marching in circles.) Another is put the skeer on 'em and keep it there. (No need to mention who said that, but the tactic was practiced many centuries before him.) Artillery and fortifications predate written history.

Point, if there is one, is you take advantage of every weakness you find ... and you create one where one isn't. What we're talking about here, is developments in improving on the basics. I.E., with the rifled gun, I can smash your walls. With the rifled musket, I can push your artillery further back. (Note, ME, the problem is not with further, but with f a r ther.) With the RR at my back, I can keep up the pressure.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
There are certain principles in warfare that have not changed since Adam was chased out of Eden. One is sneak up on them. (Forrest's, "Hit them where they ain't.")

Once again, Ole, "Hit 'em where they ain't" wasn't Forrest. It was Wee Willie Keller... lifetime batting average .341 including .424 for the Baltimore Orioles in 1897.

Perhaps you're thinking of Forrest's "Get there fustest with the mostest."
 
footeguest, I wasn't referencing the Boxer rebellion... that was amatuer hour. I'm looking at a contemporary Chinese rebellion to that in North America. more people died there than in all of the Europpean wars of the 19th Century. IIRC an estimated 25 million.

I'd be interestred in what Google or Wiki have to say on it... if it's even listed.
 
Aerial reconnaissance
Ironclad warships (some with revolving turrets)
submarine
Railroads
Telegraph
Repeating rifles and carbines
Machine (Gatling) gun
breech-loading artillery
lessons in sanitation

Napoleon played with the balloon, but wasn't impressed and shelved it.
Koreans had an ironclad warship, the famous turtle boat. Beat the Japanese with it too.
We had the David in the American Revolution.
Repeating rifles - well, we had a design in the American Revolution. 16 shot flintlock.
breech-loading artillery - they had them during the days of Henry Tudor.
Sanitation - Henry Bouquet (French & Indian War) complained that at camp, the men weren't using the necessaries. BTW, during the American Revolution one surgeon discovered that bandages soaked in alcohol reduced infection. He didn't understand why, but found it worked.
 
I would have to say that towards the very few months that the Confederate Army was fighting more as Open Order Infantry that shoulder to shoulder. This was because of the Sharp Shooter battalion within almost each brigade. Look at the Battle of Cedar Creek most of the spearhead attacks were done in open order. Plus working in small teams to accomplish goals.

Plus one has to remember that some Generals when to European Nation and went into into the Army. With seeing how effect this open order of battle help reduce casualties and still give you the the ***** that you need to accomplish what you have sent out to do.

But also towards the end of the War the Union Army was starting to see some some open order fighting as more brigades and divisions had specialized units to do the same effect as that of the Confederate Army. I would read "Shock Troops of the Confederacy" as some of the later chapters make references of how close WWI mimick that of the late '64-'65 ANV.
 
I would have to say that towards the very few months that the Confederate Army was fighting more as Open Order Infantry that shoulder to shoulder. This was because of the Sharp Shooter battalion within almost each brigade....

But also towards the end of the War the Union Army was starting to see some some open order fighting as more brigades and divisions had specialized units to do the same effect as that of the Confederate Army. I would read "Shock Troops of the Confederacy" as some of the later chapters make references of how close WWI mimick that of the late '64-'65 ANV.

Open order combat wasn't something invented by the Confederates. Don't forget that the Napoleonic British riflemen of the 95th and their German counterparts of the 60th (King's Royal Rifle Corps) fought using open order. Before them open order was practiced by the levee en masse of the French. The French did it out of lack of training (they killed off many of their professional officer corps) and even they were not the first Europeans. Nor were the Germans who popularized the rifleman (Jager) before the Napoleonic Wars the ones to receive credit. In the firearm era, the Ottomans and their counterparts practiced stalking, camouflage and bushwhacking on each other.

In America, the American riflemen of the Revolution didn't stand shoulder to shoulder. Guess who taught our riflemen that? The Red Man. They were rude enough to hide behind trees, folds in the earth, behind bushes when they fought.

Going back to the Confederates sharpshooters, lest we forget, the Union created the first sharpshooter units (Berdan's, Andrew's Sharp Shooters, Birge's Western Sharp Shooters) which fought in open order combat. They probably inspired the Confederate Congress to pass the legislation in April of 1862 to raise their own sharp shooter battalions. The Company of Military Historians will be releasing my article on Confederate sharpshooter selection. Fully footnoted, it promises to shake many preconceived notions about the Confederate sharpshooter.

BTW, my own book on the blackpowder sharpshooter is in the designer's hands. With eight chapters discussing the Civil War (the other seven are pre and post-Civil War), it's almost 400k words, over 1,500 endnotes and has a bibliography of over 20 pages. It has been subjected to peer review by The Company of Military Historians and has received their highest endorsement, Standard Reference.
 
Napoleon played with the balloon, but wasn't impressed and shelved it.
Koreans had an ironclad warship, the famous turtle boat. Beat the Japanese with it too.
We had the David in the American Revolution.
Repeating rifles - well, we had a design in the American Revolution. 16 shot flintlock.
breech-loading artillery - they had them during the days of Henry Tudor.
Sanitation - Henry Bouquet (French & Indian War) complained that at camp, the men weren't using the necessaries. BTW, during the American Revolution one surgeon discovered that bandages soaked in alcohol reduced infection. He didn't understand why, but found it worked.

As I'm sure you already know, what matters in military history is usually not the invention of the weapon but the implementation of the weapon.

The big change of the 1850s was not the introduction of a rifled muzzleloader -- flintlock rifled shoulder arms had existed for a long, long time. Units like the American rifleman and the European units you mentioned had existed back in the 1700s for special situations. What causes the big change on the battlefield in the 1850s-1860s is the mass deployment of percussion-capped Minie-style rifles. The technology had now reached the point where a rifled musket could be fired about as rapidly as a smoothbore, and could be manufactured cheaply enough to arm the whole army instead of just selected units.

Similar for other weapons. The mere fact of a submersible existing didn't change warfare much. The Turtle and the Hunley are impressive efforts by a few men, but had little noticeable effect on warfare. By WWI the technology has improved to where submarines can be potent weapons, and can be manufactured in sufficient numbers to have a major impact. The first airplane in 1903 didn't change much, and aircraft at the start of WWI were still a novelty -- but by 1918 they were a visble threat and an important part of warfare.

Tim
 
Tim - the Civil War is notable for the wide distribution of rifled arms to the troops. But this also happened in the Crimean War. Still, as Prof. Hess points out in The Rifled Musket in Combat, it didn't really have an effect on the casualties as one would think. Certainly the guns were more accurate than their smoothbore forerunners, but marksmanship practice and instruction were very wanting in both armies. I discuss this to some extent in my book.

However, that the percentage of rifles increased did give the infantryman who knew how to aim and had a knack for Kentucky Windage the ability to hit f a r ther out than he would have had he been issued the smoothbore. Hence, the examples of long range sharpshooting that was once rare in the earlier wars became a lot more common.

You are right about a lag time between the adoption of the weapon and the development of tactics that exploit the weapon to its full advantage. I think the best example is the tank. The British invented it but the Germans showed the world how to use it. Hopefully no one does the same with the atomic weapon.
 
Tim - the Civil War is notable for the wide distribution of rifled arms to the troops. But this also happened in the Crimean War. Still, as Prof. Hess points out in The Rifled Musket in Combat, it didn't really have an effect on the casualties as one would think. Certainly the guns were more accurate than their smoothbore forerunners, but marksmanship practice and instruction were very wanting in both armies. I discuss this to some extent in my book.

However, that the percentage of rifles increased did give the infantryman who knew how to aim and had a knack for Kentucky Windage the ability to hit f a r ther out than he would have had he been issued the smoothbore. Hence, the examples of long range sharpshooting that was once rare in the earlier wars became a lot more common.

I agree with all that. The only thing that I believe is commonly overlooked on this is that when troops were firing at one another more than 100 yards out, they were not usually firing at individuals -- they were firing at units.

This is area fire, and the rifle changes the way units are moved and deployed tactically. The easiest, fastest way to move infantry under fire is in a dense column. French Napoleonic infantry tactics made a lot of use of it in 1793-1815. When the troops were really well trained, they used a mixture of battalions in alternating column and line with a cloud of skirmishers out front.

The column is the easiest and fastest -- but also the most vulnerable, the biggest and densest target. We see very little use of columns in ACW open-field battles as a result. At 200 yards in the Civil War, a dense column is a fat target. Area volley fire by a regiment armed with rifles could likely have inflicted painful casualties at that distance. With smoothbores, the defender would not even try to fire. As a result, almost no one tried to maneuver that way in the ACW, although it was a key part of infantry tactics before the ACW. (As I would guess you already know, there is a revival of infantry assaults in column late in the war under Emory Upton, attempting to break through entrenchments in a rush, starting at Spotsylvania. It was an all-or-nothing tactic, resulting in either quick breaking of the line or awful slaughter.)

The rifle also affected cavalry on the battlefield. With flintlock smoothbores, infantry within a few hundred yards of formed enemy cavalry almost had to form square for protection. A cavalry charge was ideally developed over 600 yards, increasing the pace every 200. Against smoothbore infantry, the first 400+ yards, maybe 500, were done without receiving fire. On an ACW battlefield, that cavalry might receive fire at 200-300 yards from the defender's rifles. A cavalry regiment moving in formation makes a very big target for area fire by an infantry regiment -- and most of the damage is done by hitting horses, not men. As a result, I can tick off the number of verifiable instances of units forming square in the entire ACW on the fingers of my hands (1st Bull Run, Gettysburg, New Market ...) I can find more than that in just about any small Napoleonic battle.

Rifles also allowed area fire to cover gaps in the line and protect other units better, but I see little discussion of this around. This in turn allowed units to influence a wider area, and assisted defenders in repelling attacks.

I agree with you absolutely that training and doctrine in the world's armies was muddled and unsuited to the rifle at that time. It was new, they weren't sure how best to use it, they made mistakes, and the shift to mass armies in the US makes for an organizational nightmare. But the Austrians -- who had a different tactical system based more on firepower than shock dating from the Archduke Charles in 1809 -- totally blew the introduction of the rifle. Having lost to the French in 1859, they decided that shock action with the bayonet, largely in column, was the way to go with the new weapon. They retrained their infantry to do that. In 1866, they tried it against the breechloader-armed Prussians with horrible casualties the result. Clearly even the Austrians (regarded as the 2nd best army in the world at that time) couldn't figure out the implications of the new weapons in peacetime. The US soldiers need not hang their heads in the comparison.

I think a lot of the implications of the rifle in the ACW are shown more in what was not done than in what was done. Infantry, cavalry, and artillery usage changed in reaction to it. Also, the period of the rifle muzzleloader was short. The Crimean War sees the first mass use of it, and that really only on one side. The Prussians -- who have had some breechloaders in use since the 1840s -- rearm totally with the "Needle Gun" breechloader starting in 1862 and cream Austria with it in 1866. The French switch to the Chassepot breechloader in reaction in an emergency move in 1866, and the next big war, the Franco-Prussian in 1870, is fought with both sides armed with breechloaders. There was barely a decade to work out how to use these new muzzleloading rifles, and then they were already obsolete.

Tim
 
Tim, I couldn't agree more.

Emory Upton did indeed re-discover the column formation. Favoring him was a very short distance of ground (less than 100 yards) in which the defender could only fire off two volleys before he overwhelmed them. Additionally, the defender's supporting cannon really couldn't bear at the point of Upton's attack which is one of the reasons why Upton attacked where he did. Upton did capture a sizeable portion of the line, but he wasn't supported (Mott's supporting attack was pre-mature since Mott never received the order to delay his attack one hour like Upton did) and the Confederates allowed time to counter-attack and drive Upton back.

As to the rifle musket, the Russians did have some but not in the numbers that the Allies did. Earlier in Rumania the Russians really gave the zouaves a drubbing (according to one English observor). More important is your observation that the rifle musket had a very short life span. Just as it reached its zenith, it was eclipsed by the breech loader. Joe Bilby said the same thing in one of his books.

If I'm ever in your part of the country, I'm going to have to look you up and buy you a brewski. I met with several other members here and we sat for hours talking about the wa-oh. I would imagine it would be the same with you.

Cordially,

Gary
 
Tim, I couldn't agree more. ...
More important is your observation that the rifle musket had a very short life span. Just as it reached its zenith, it was eclipsed by the breech loader. Joe Bilby said the same thing in one of his books.

I never met Joe Bilby, but my friend Steve Meserve knew him well. I have read some of Joe's work along the way.

Tim
 
I just saw my article. The designer made a Peeping-Tom out of my Confederate sharpshooter. You have to see the way the magazine is layed out to appreciate it.
 

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