Influences,the"first modern war"

footeghost

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My question would be who were all these commanders influenced by the most. Obviously it was "what would Napoleon do?" but who else were they trying to emulate or was this new ground.(I think not though some better Rifles). Also there were many military observers from other countries. Who Influenced them? I always think of Cavalry and Armor. Viscount Woolsey Head of English Military at turn of century stating Forrest to be the "greatest white Cavalry Officer of the past century" Rommel "Brices crossroads the perfect battle" Patton similar feelings, also a huge Military history genious. General Lee, Grant,Sherman Being there were several conflicts after involving Prussia,France,England including Arabia and the Boar war an Insugent affair in the 50 years following leading to WW1 and 2 was our own Civil war really the "first modern war" and were there any real military genious from it?
 
And yet, exactly because of technology, I think a strong case can be made for the Civil War as being the first 'modern' war.

Aerial reconnaissance
Ironclad warships (some with revolving turrets)
submarine
Railroads
Telegraph
Repeating rifles and carbines
Machine (Gatling) gun
breech-loading artillery
lessons in sanitation

Had any of those been seen on a massive scale before 1861? Strategy and tactics always needs a learning curve to catch up with technology. The weaponry was clearly advanced. The machinery of war, if not the art of war, had become modern.

I am a child of the 50s. Our protection against a nuclear attack was duck and cover. Anyway, I for one felt pretty safe huddled under my desk, even though I didn't know then that tactic was useless.

Hey, didn't some Axis officers actually study Gettysburg on site prior to WWII? Maybe there was still something to be learned after all.
 
PvtClewell: And yet, exactly because of technology, I think a strong case can be made for the Civil War as being the first 'modern' war.

Aerial reconnaissance
Ironclad warships (some with revolving turrets)
submarine
Railroads
Telegraph
Repeating rifles and carbines
Machine (Gatling) gun
breech-loading artillery
lessons in sanitation

Had any of those been seen on a massive scale before 1861? Strategy and tactics always needs a learning curve to catch up with technology. The weaponry was clearly advanced. The machinery of war, if not the art of war, had become modern.

I agree with this statement and analogy. Strategy & Tactics may certainly were a throw back to Napoleonic Wars, but modern technology was a precursor of WWI. Trench warfare was certainly becoming a common theme in the later days of the ACW.

Buzzard
 
I agree

I agree with this statement and analogy. Strategy & Tactics may certainly were a throw back to Napoleonic Wars, but modern technology was a precursor of WWI. Trench warfare was certainly becoming a common theme in the later days of the ACW.

Buzzard

This is more or less what I was trying to get at. Also I believe the story of a few Axis Officers before WWll visiting ACW sites to be true.

I mention Cavalry and armored comparisons due to of course to the obvious of this being the new version of this arm. Patton and Rommel were both Cavalry Officers first as were other Armor commanders. I mention Forrest (Besides being my favorite General of the ACW) because they were students of his tactics, Rommel very outspoken about this and his actions particularly in Africa clearly demonstrate this, as do Pattons.Tactics, Speed, merciless pursuit, Lightning strikes,(Blitzkreig?) even Shwartzkopf mentions his name.

Point is all the great Cavalry Leaders in history influenced these men,and they say so. But I have never read a Stonewall,or Grant,or Lee being mentioned in the same league as a Hannibal,Prince Eugene of Savoy, Gustavas,Frederick or Napolean by say an Eisenhower, Bradley, a Churchill etc... or before in the bloodiest war ever to that time as doing anything new worth military influence on future commanders.. A shame I think as there was some brilliant in many cases actions. Ben
 
ACW was the Bridge---

I would like to bring up that the Overland and Atlanta Campaigns mirrored the opening months of World War One. Large armies in continuous contact during the a military campaign leading to battles being just days apart instead of weeks or months. These two campaigns issued in the modern warfare and marking the end of the Napoleonic era...Lee the last great Napoleonic general and Grant the first great general of a new age of warfare...

The Overland campaign then grins into trench warfare just as World War One Western front grins into trench warfare as well.

The Atlanta Campaign mirrors World War Ones period called "The Race to The Sea" where both armies were trying to flank each other all the way to the sea. If you think about it Sherman and Johnston were both trying to flank each other while racing towards Atlanta...

Our ACW began in the Napoleonic era but ended in the modern era of industrialize of warfare...It is the bridge between the to eras of warfare....
 
In general, anyone wondering about how the American Civil War affected military thought could not go far wrong by beginning with this book:

The Military Legacy of the Civil War: The European Inheritance by Jay Luvaas. Click here for the Amazon page

Another good book to read for this purpose would be The Civil War: In the Writings of Col. G.F.R. Henderson, also by Jay Luvaas. Click here for the Amazon link.

Jay Luvaas was a former history professor at the U.S. Army History Institute and the U.S. Army War College. He might be better known in this community for his writings in the U. S. Army War College Guides to Civil War Battles series.

G. F. R. Henderson (a Lee and Jackson admirer) is generally regarded as one of the three best British military historians/analysts of the last 150 years. The other two would be J. F. C. Fuller (a Grant man) and B. H. Liddell-Hart (a Sherman man), both of whom rose to fame after WWI, while Henderson died before WWI.

Tim
 
Griffith, Paddy, Battle In the Civil War Generalship and Tactics in America 1861-65, Fieldbooks, 1986.
Griffith, Paddy, Battle Tactics of the Civil War, Yale University Press, 2001.
 
This is a horrible analogy, but it reminds me of spinster aunts fawning over a child.
One inevitably says, "Oh, he reminds me of Uncle X."
The other predictably responds with, "You're sadly and completely mistaken. He's much more like Grandfather Y."
The argument continues until both aunts have passed away - this isn't the sort of thing that one gives up once it has a hold on you.

The correct response of course is that while he shares characteristics & genes of both Uncle X and Grandfather Y, the child is most like himself.

That said, it might be better to compare our internal conflict to the Crimean War and the Franco-Prussian War. These bracket the USCW nicely both in time, scope, and casualties.

[edit: For the original question, I suppose why not? It really depends on how you define modern, dunnit?]
 
That said, it might be better to compare our internal conflict to the Crimean War and the Franco-Prussian War. These bracket the USCW nicely both in time, scope, and casualties.

The Franco-Prussian is a bit too late for a real comparison. That was fought after both the Prussians (Germans) and the French had rearmed with breechloading rifles, and the Prussians were using breechloading, quick-firing steel Krupp guns. Technology had already marched on from the Civil War.

The timeline for wars fought with rifled muzzle-loading muskets goes like this:
1853-56 Crimean War
First mass use of the rifled musket with percussion caps, first tactical use of the railroad, the telegraph, photography, beginning of the nursing revolution, etc.

1858 Second Danish War
Prussia and Denmark slug it out over Schleswig-Holstein again. Not much of interest here other than some minor use of the Prussian "Needle Gun" breechloader.

1859 Austro-French War in Italy
First mass mobilization with the RR as the French deploy into Italy (French general's comment: "Everything we did, we should not have done; everything we didn't do, we should have done.") This is the war that gave us the high-fashion colors of Magenta and Solferino, named after French victories. Zouave tactics, named after the French units, became the rage.

The French, having won, thought the lesson of the war was that their infantry tactics (essentially Napoleonic infantry tactics raised to near-perfection by training) were the answer to the rifled musket. The Austrians, having lost, were more critical: they revamped their artillery to rearm with rifled guns (about like a 3" Ordnance Rifle of the ACW), but they decided the success of the French showed that massed bayonet charges carried through with determination were the way to win. The Prussian General Staff observers (i.e., von Moltke) decided the lesson was that firepower would dominate the battlefield in the future.

1861-65 American Civil War

1864 Third Danish War ("The Potato War")
Prussia and Denmark slug it out over Schleswig-Holstein yet again -- with Austria siding with the Prussians.

1866 The Austro-Prussian War
The Prussian "Needle Gun" is declared King by observers; France launches a rearmament with the Chassepot breechloader as a result.

It is a little "stretchy," I think, to compare it to the Napoleonic Wars or WWI, as these were of a vastly different scale and caused something like 3 times an order of magnitude of the casualties.

Wars used pretty much the same weapons from the time of Marlborough (1700) through Frederick the Great to Napoleon and up to the Mexican War. The dominant infantry weapon is the flintlock smoothebore musket with a socket bayonet for all (or almost all of that 150-year period.

In the 1850s, muzzleloading percussion-capped rifle-muskets were replacing the smoothbore musket in mass use.

The USCW was pivotal to the US history, but only by extension to the futures of other nations.

Most of the European militaries actually paid little or only limited attention to the ACW. They had great interest in some technical details and specific topics, but saw little new overall.

One of these was the use of rifled artillery against the state-of-the-art masonry fortifications like Ft. Sumter. The 1862 reduction of Ft. Pulaski outside Savannah was widely studied in Europe as a result, as were the siege operations at Charleston.

RR operations were another. Sherman's Atlanta Campaign was an eye-opener to the Prussians, who would later adopt the structure of the USMRR wholesale for their own units.

The cavalry operations were a mixed bag for the Europeans. The only ones who saw value there were the British (where there was a bitter divide) and the Russians.

As you'll note above, the Prussians fought four wars of their own and observed two other major wars at close range (in Italy and the Crimea). They saw more than enough to study on most things in there. The Prussian/German Great General Staff never did a real study on the American Civil War.

Neither the Austrians nor the French paid any great attention to the war.

In the British Army, study of the ACW disappeared from 1870 to about the late 1880s in the wave of everything-Prussian. From the 1890s on, British Army study of the ACW became intense, led by Henderson, Fuller, and Liddell-Hart.

Tim
 
Trice, a concise and important look. I often grow frustrated while doing Living Histories as I portray a veteran of the Crimea... and very few know the Crimea from Italy. If anything in significance the Crimea was more important than the ACW to the rest of the world; especially as the general opinion of the ACW by European General officers was that it was a contest between howling amatuers.

The stories that Rommel and Guderian studied the ACW are feel good stories w/ no real bassis in fact, in fact much of the significance given to the ACW by us is overdone. As Trice has shown the ACW did not revolutionize warfare as many claim. Yes there were some firsts... which is true of any war. Necessity is the mother of invention after all. In scope it was rather small when compared to other conflicts happening as a contemporary... it's a school yard brawl when compared to the Civil War/Rebellion happening in China at the time. A war that few know anything about or are even vaguelly aware of.

The ACW was NOT the first Total War.
The ACW was NOT the first in which RR were used.
The ACW was NOT the first to use a submarine.
The ACW was NOT the first to use modern entrenchements.
The ACW was NOT the first to see black men under arms.
Forrest did NOT revolutionize warfare by his raiding tactics.
The list could go on but suffice it to say the US was NOT the center of military advancement and invention in the 19th Century.
 
Trice, a concise and important look. I often grow frustrated while doing Living Histories as I portray a veteran of the Crimea... and very few know the Crimea from Italy. If anything in significance the Crimea was more important than the ACW to the rest of the world; especially as the general opinion of the ACW by European General officers was that it was a contest between howling amatuers.

The stories that Rommel and Guderian studied the ACW are feel good stories w/ no real bassis in fact, in fact much of the significance given to the ACW by us is overdone. As Trice has shown the ACW did not revolutionize warfare as many claim. Yes there were some firsts... which is true of any war. Necessity is the mother of invention after all. In scope it was rather small when compared to other conflicts happening as a contemporary... it's a school yard brawl when compared to the Civil War/Rebellion happening in China at the time. A war that few know anything about or are even vaguelly aware of.

The ACW was NOT the first Total War.
The ACW was NOT the first in which RR were used.
The ACW was NOT the first to use a submarine.
The ACW was NOT the first to use modern entrenchements.
The ACW was NOT the first to see black men under arms.
Forrest did NOT revolutionize warfare by his raiding tactics.
The list could go on but suffice it to say the US was NOT the center of military advancement and invention in the 19th Century.


The best way to view all this is as a process. The ACW has a major place in it -- just not the place Americans often like to see it as, and most of what was is visible best in hindsight. The European professionals paid even less attention to that war in China than they did to the ACW

The European militaries that took the most from the ACW were Russia and Britain. There was good reason for that: both saw similarities between the situation in America and their own situation. Both faced far-flung areas where they might have to fight, often with newly-raised raw troops built on core professionals. The ACW was like that, so they drew analogies to their own situation.

The French, Austrians and Prussians didn't see the same relationship. The French and Austrians were widely regarded as #1 and #2 in the world's militaries, and so saw little reason to look for lessons from those wild Americans. The Prussians studied the Austrians and French and their own wars. There was a great deal of "not-invented-here" in their attitude toward lessons from America.

On technical matters, they were greatly interested in the effect of the new rifled guns on masonry fortifications. This is normal because there had really been no situation to that point anywhere in the world that tested this, and it was a matter of great debate in the professional journals of the day. Thus Ft. Sumter, the Charleston siege operations, and Ft. Pulaski were of great interest and studied intently.

Ironclad warships were in existence; the British and French had them. But there were only six in the world when the ACW started, and there had been no combats involving them. The European navies were very interested in seeing experimental results, and the 1862 clash between the Monitor and the Merrimac was the first opportunity to see what happened (as well as the first example of a ship with a turret in battle). Naval architects and theoreticians pored over the descriptions of such battles as a result.

RRs existed and had seen some use -- but nowhere near the scale involved in America. That's not very surprising. In 1861, Britain and the US had more RR track than any other nations -- and the Confederacy would be third if broken out of the US. Military use of RRs was very new, and the ACW was the biggest laboratory on how to use it. So military technicians paid great attention, and marvelled at what Sherman did with it in the Atlanta Campaign.

Other than technical details, most Europeans thought there was little new or noteworthy in how the Americans fought their war. This opinion is more common earlier in the war, when European observers seem to have laughed at much of what they saw. If you look at the record of British observers, the later they came, the more impressed they were. Not surprising. They normally went to Virginia, and by 1863-64 the AoP and ANV had a lot to be noticed.

On cavalry, there was a great divide in the militaries of the world. The "Old School" insisted that no true cavalryman would dismount to fight. The new radicals (particularly in Britain) favored "mounted infantry" tactics much like those of Buford and Forrest in most situations. The British radicals pointed at the ACW as well as their own operations in India and New Zealand and elsewhere. (Some had careers crushed as a result, but one of the British advocates was a general with a tremendous record and the Victoria Cross; not so easy to make him go away.)

The Russians adopted dismounted tactics for their Cossacks (long-term Regulars/professionals by that point). Noting the tendency of ACW cavalry raids to fail at demolitions and destruction, they added a sapper section to every Cossack regiment. In the 1877 war against the Turks, a deep cavalry raid by cossacks dismounted to storm a crucial town with the bayonet, and may have been the reason for Russian victory in the war.

Other than that, there is little real impact directly traceable to the ACW until the rise of G. F. R. Henderson in Britain in the 1890s. He was a Stonewall Jackson fanatic and a Lee admirer; he also was the teacher of a great many officers at Sandhurst. Lord Roberts dragged him out of teaching to run his intel operations when he went to South Africa to crush the Boers in 1900, and Henderson was probably as responsible as anyone for British success there. As a result, study of the ACW mushroomed in the British Army, with major essay questions on the war in Virginia on most officer exams in the early 1900s. Allenby of Palestine fame was a Henderson man, for example.

The French paid no attention; neither did the Germans, the Austrians, the Italians, etc. As WWI came, the French "chapels" developed a warped theory that elan could conquer anything. This was to the extent that the French observers at the Russo-Japanese War reported the offensive was dominant (after all, the Japanese did eventually take Port Arthur after wading through a sea of blood -- the machine guns, artillery, entrenchments and barbed wire didn't stop them.) The Germans, still believing in the offensive, did at least notice that entrenchments were good for the defensive in that war, and changed their tactical manuals as a result.

Tim
 
The point I was trying to make is that I understand the Civil War is clearly not the first use of rifled weapons, or of submarines, or of railroad mobilization, etc. But rather all these ingredients taken together, I think, contribute to the modernization of warfare on a widescale basis that hadn't been seen before.

http://www.aeragon.com/03/index.html

Maybe all of this is nothing more than the inexorable evolution of warfare that was going to happen anyway.

The tactics might have been Napoleanic, but the technology was not.
 
The point I was trying to make is that I understand the Civil War is clearly not the first use of rifled weapons, or of submarines, or of railroad mobilization, etc. But rather all these ingredients taken together, I think, contribute to the modernization of warfare on a widescale basis that hadn't been seen before.

http://www.aeragon.com/03/index.html

Maybe all of this is nothing more than the inexorable evolution of warfare that was going to happen anyway.

The tactics might have been Napoleanic, but the technology was not.

What goes on here is that the technology is arriving and being implemented rapidly, and the theories don't have time to adapt. The "Old School" wants to deny anything has "really" changed, but even the people who see there is a change aren't sure what to do with it.

Some theorists -- seeing firepower had increased -- decide troops have to move faster. The beat of military music is made faster as a result (compare, say, AmRev renditions of "Yankee Doodle" to ACW versions. Why? To reflect the faster march rates. The idea was that by moving more rapidly the troops would be less exposed to fire, and so could still do the same things tactically.

That's not such a wierd idea. All tactics are based on the interaction of firepower, movement, and protection factors. (This is particularly obvious in navies, where ships are always a tradeoff of speed, guns, and armor.) The problem from about 1855 to 1918 was that the defensive side was able to benefit from the new technologies much more rapidly than the offensive side was.

Tim
 
Fish makes a good point in that the war began as a Napoleonic war and ended up as a modern war... that hits the nail squarely on the head MHO.. It is certainly not the same war in 1865 as it was in 1861

While I am not certain that Axis personnel studied Gettysburg, I am fairly certain that American officers studied at Chickamauga.. Patton, Bradley and others..
 

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