Holster reference, ID help

[Billw12280]

Hello,
I'm looking for good reference material for holster identification. I picked up 2 holsters and I'm trying to figure out a date for them. The one on the right appears to possibly be Civil War or Indian Wars and fits my replica 1851 Colt Navy like a glove.

The one on the left strikes me as later, maybe WWI? The reference material I have only briefly discusses holsters and does not really get into identification. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Billw12280]

Does anybody have US Military Holsters and Pistol Cartridge Boxes by Edward Meadows? If so is it worth the $100+ price tag?

 

[Ralph Heinz]

Email me at [email protected] as I would like to know dimensions, etc. of the holster on the left in the photo as I may be able to identify it. It appears to be missing the leather tab. I have one just like it in brown leather and these may be post war European holsters up to WWI. It is not a US made holster. I could then send you a photo of mine showing the missing leather tab.l

 

[Ralph Heinz]

I'm attaching photos of two Civil War period holsters for Colt M1851 Navy revolvers. The holster on the right in the front view is an Army issue holster made by I. J. PITTMAN of NYC or Newark, NJ. This is the standard issue Army holster of the mid-war time period with 3 copper rivets and 2 rows of stitching holding the belt loop to the holster (as seen in the back view). An earlier version had only two rivets. Although many people identify this model holster as being for the M1860 Army revolver -- this one is too short for the 8" barrel of the M1860 and was made to only fit the M1851 Navy with it's 7 1/2" barrel.

The holster on the left in the front view is a private purchase holster of pigskin and holsters of this type were purchased by officers and civilians. The Colt 1851 Navy model revolver was actually used by large numbers of federal cavalry troopers particularly early in the war before production of the .44 cal. M1860 Army revolver caught up with demands and officers and some state units purchased large numbers of M1851 Navies. The loops on holsters sold privately usually have much lighter duty belt loops as seen in the back view. Many were worn on the western frontier.

Since the Colt M1851 Navy revolver was made as late as 1873, many of the civilian holsters post-date the Civil War and there is really no way to conclusively date them. Yours was certainly made for the M1851 Navy but is not an Army issue piece. It appears to have been machine stitched along the edge which could date it later. Are there any ink stamps inside like "WCC" as Western Costume Company made a lot of holsters for western movies in the 1950's and I've owned one of these.

Your other holster might fit my WWI Webley revolver and I would be interested in buying it if possible. There are two small holes in the flap which means someone at some time attached a long leather tab to it. Originally, the tab was much shorter and stitched to the holster body on the back side.

 

[Billw12280]

Email me at [email protected] as I would like to know dimensions, etc. of the holster on the left in the photo as I may be able to identify it. It appears to be missing the leather tab. I have one just like it in brown leather and these may be post war European holsters up to WWI. It is not a US made holster. I could then send you a photo of mine showing the missing leather tab.l

I will email some measurements to you today. There was definitely a tab stitched and possibly riveted to the back of the holster but it was missing when I bought the piece.

 

[Billw12280]

I'm attaching photos of two Civil War period holsters for Colt M1851 Navy revolvers. The holster on the right in the front view is an Army issue holster made by I. J. PITTMAN of NYC or Newark, NJ. This is the standard issue Army holster of the mid-war time period with 3 copper rivets and 2 rows of stitching holding the belt loop to the holster (as seen in the back view). An earlier version had only two rivets. Although many people identify this model holster as being for the M1860 Army revolver -- this one is too short for the 8" barrel of the M1860 and was made to only fit the M1851 Navy with it's 7 1/2" barrel.

The holster on the left in the front view is a private purchase holster of pigskin and holsters of this type were purchased by officers and civilians. The Colt 1851 Navy model revolver was actually used by large numbers of federal cavalry troopers particularly early in the war before production of the .44 cal. M1860 Army revolver caught up with demands and officers and some state units purchased large numbers of M1851 Navies. The loops on holsters sold privately usually have much lighter duty belt loops as seen in the back view. Many were worn on the western frontier.

Since the Colt M1851 Navy revolver was made as late as 1873, many of the civilian holsters post-date the Civil War and there is really no way to conclusively date them. Yours was certainly made for the M1851 Navy but is not an Army issue piece. It appears to have been machine stitched along the edge which could date it later. Are there any ink stamps inside like "WCC" as Western Costume Company made a lot of holsters for western movies in the 1950's and I've owned one of these.

Your other holster might fit my WWI Webley revolver and I would be interested in buying it if possible. There are two small holes in the flap which means someone at some time attached a long leather tab to it. Originally, the tab was much shorter and stitched to the holster body on the back side.
View attachment 154231 View attachment 154232

Thank you so much for the information.

The holster for the 1851 Navy definitely has some age to it but I can't say for certain. The belt loop looks to me like it may have been replaced at some point and the fasteners holding it on don't look quite right but again I was thinking they were replacements. There are no stamps anywhere on either piece that I have seen.

I would be willing to entertain selling the WWI holster, we can discuss via email when I send you measurements for it.

 

[zburkett]

I have a relic holster I found where they were renovating a building that had been a hospital after Manassas. It looks right and while the flap and rivets on mine are gone, the holes are in the right place and the flap and belt retainer were definatelly held on with rivets or something like them.

 

[Billw12280]

I have a relic holster I found where they were renovating a building that had been a hospital after Manassas. It looks right and while the flap and rivets on mine are gone, the holes are in the right place and the flap and belt retainer were definatelly held on with rivets or something like them.

If you get a chance can you post a picture? I would love to see it to compare it with mine.

 

[zburkett]

Yes I will but it may be a couple of days.

 

[Billw12280]

Yes I will but it may be a couple of days.

No problem, thanks!

 

[zburkett]

Here is my relic holster found where they were renovating a building that had been a hospital after Manassas. The repro Colt's is for size comparison.

 

[Billw12280]

Here is my relic holster found where they were renovating a building that had been a hospital after Manassas. The repro Colt's is for size comparison. View attachment 154629 View attachment 154630 View attachment 154631

Cool piece with neat origins, thanks for sharing.

 

[zburkett]

A little bit of backside on this holster. The town was Salam, now called Marshall. It is where Mosby formed and disbanded his Rangers. I had just moved to D.C. (early 80s) and spent most of my free time exploring. What I didn't know was that the couple of dozen shoes scattered around the site were also civil war so I didn't pick them up.

If you noticed, there is still the imprint of an 1851 in the holster.

 

[Ralph Heinz]

It appears that someone many years ago needed round leather pieces and took an arch punch to cut them from the holster after which it was discarded. This is the bane of us collectors when over a hundred years ago, these items were of no value and were scavenged for leather. I used to collect saddles (1960's) and often found where some rancher needed a piece of leather to repair something and cut pieces out of an old saddle fender or skirt destroying an antique saddle from the 1880s because he didn't think it had any value. Your holster is time period Civil War at any rate.

 

[zburkett]

Ralph, look at where the rivets on the holster you posted are. Then look at where the holes in my relic holster are. Then trust me, I found it with a lot of hospital debris from a known after battle hospital. Coincidence, someone cut little rounds of leather in those exact places. I think not.

 

[Billw12280]

Ralph, look at where the rivets on the holster you posted are. Then look at where the holes in my relic holster are. Then trust me, I found it with a lot of hospital debris from a known after battle hospital. Coincidence, someone cut little rounds of leather in those exact places. I think not.

The holes do look like they could have been intentionally cut out, but for what reason? If anything I would say maybe somebody cut out the metal rivets to reuse? The world may never know... still one of the coolest Civil War finds in my opinion, I would love to have a cool story like that but sadly all of my "finds" are from shows, antique shops, or online dealers. Thanks again for sharing, I always enjoy seeing items from other collections.

 

[Billw12280]

A little bit of backside on this holster. The town was Salam, now called Marshall. It is where Mosby formed and disbanded his Rangers. I had just moved to D.C. (early 80s) and spent most of my free time exploring. What I didn't know was that the couple of dozen shoes scattered around the site were also civil war so I didn't pick them up.

If you noticed, there is still the imprint of an 1851 in the holster.

You definitely lucked out with that holster, I wonder what happened with the shoes? I hope somebody saved them from being sent to the trash pile.

 

[Ralph Heinz]

It is almost impossible to reuse rivets -- I've tried. When the washer was set on the stem of the rivet and then a hammer was pounded on the rivet setter, it expands that stem's diameter on both sides of the washer. You would have to cut away the old leather from the stem and then use a jeweler's saw blade (very narrow) to cut the stem. Then you would have to file down the diameter of the stem to reuse the rivet and it's just not worth all the effort as you end up with a stem too short to go through two or three layers of leather. Those were copper rivets and are readily available today. Brass rivets came in after the CW and are harder to find.

The one time I tried this was to use the original rivet and washer with deep patina. A collector with a rare Spencer Blakeslee 13 tube cartridge box asked me to restore the leather latch on the lid that was torn in half on an otherwise fabulous item. On that I had to cut the rivet in half, sew a leather latch in place and simply glue the two halves of the original rivet in place to restore it. It looked great but the rivet wasn't functional being in two pieces glued to the leather.

Why someone cut out those rivets with an arc punch on your holster is a mystery. In the west at frontier army posts, soldiers threw away used boots, etc. into the holes in out houses and some of these have been recovered in recent decades. I used to have a rare pair of 1872 cavalry boots recovered from an old out house at a fort site in Wyoming.