Edged Wpns Help identifying a saber

[Jonl51]

Here is a Sharp & Hamilton die stamp. Notice the unstoppable fuller.

View attachment 401554

Yes I did see that one with the unstopped fuller. I agree my scabbard closely resembles the Horstman. Thank you!

 

[Jonl51]

I think you are correct that the solder was not original but either a quick and dirty repair or as you say to tighten everything up again perhaps after replacing the original grip. If this wood grip is a replacement it is very well fitted and shaped. I was judging the solder repairs,
brass ring replacement and plain wood
handle to be done out of expediency and
with what materials were available possibly
indicating southern usage/conditions.
This could very well be a Horstman saber as you suggest. Appreciate all the help and
pictures. I'm still hopeful I can tease out some letters on the ricasso. Best regards. Jonl51

Scabbard pics. Does your Horstman drag look like this? Best.

 

[bobinwmass]

Scabbard pics. Does your Horstman drag look like this? Best.

View attachment 401555

View attachment 401556

View attachment 401557

No, but according to Thillmann most of these Horstmann sabers are found with the smooth American style drag like yours, and some with the notched German style like mine. Throats are the same, made with the flat top for the 1840 style blade.

 

[James N.]

Your scabbard seam and style look very close. Is soldered on the seam with brass?

Can't tell if it was soldered with brass as the seam is very fine and the scabbard sppears to have plated at some point. In my opinion the solder on yours where the knucklebow joins the pommel and where the blade joins the hilt are not of crude Confederate manufacture. I suspect the hilt was removed at some later point (it looks like the pommel tang dome may be ground down a bit) and the wooden grip may be a replacement. Looks pretty big to also have had cord and either leather or sharkskin wrapped around it at one point, as an original wood grip that has no grooves would have had both on top of it. I think the solder is to make everything tight again.

In this period all steel scabbards were brass-soldered; today that's one of the best ways to determine fakes, since most if not all of the Chinese, etc. repros have been aluminum-soldered. And a crappy soldering job isn't always a good indicator of a Confederate-made piece - I've seen many on U.S. swords as well, more than likely a sign of quick and careless manufacture taking advantage of the ready market for them. Seeing the new and closer photos of the hilt, I agree that it looks like the grip may be an incorrect replacement though it looks very good. I also have examples of damaged swords and sabers that have been crudely "repaired" using lead solder like yours, notably this Nashville Plow Works similarly busted where the knucklebow meets the backstrap/pommel:

 

[Jonl51]

In this period all steel scabbards were brass-soldered; today that's one of the best ways to determine fakes, since most if not all of the Chinese, etc. repros have been aluminum-soldered. And a crappy soldering job isn't always a good indicator of a Confederate-made piece - I've seen many on U.S. swords as well, more than likely a sign of quick and careless manufacture taking advantage of the ready market for them. Seeing the new and closer photos of the hilt, I agree that it looks like the grip may be an incorrect replacement though it looks very good. I also have examples of damaged swords and sabers that have been crudely "repaired" using lead solder like yours, notably this Nashville Plow Works similarly busted where the knucklebow meets the backstrap/pommel:

View attachment 401597

Thank you for the information and picture!
Appreciate it. Jonl51

 

[Jonl51]

No, but according to Thillmann most of these Horstmann sabers are found with the smooth American style drag like yours, and some with the notched German style like mine. Throats are the same, made with the flat top for the 1840 style blade.

My saber does have a number of similarities to a Horstman saber, but in Thillman's book he says all of these sabers
have a 1 1/4 inch ricasso. The one I have is
at most a 1/2 inch.

 

[bobinwmass]

My saber does have a number of similarities to a Horstman saber, but in Thillman's book he says all of these sabers
have a 1 1/4 inch ricasso. The one I have is
at most a 1/2 inch.

I wonder how much of the ricssso may be pounded into the hilt with the work done on that grip? Just giving my opinion based upon all the matches to a Horstmann sword, which I believe it is. But maybe I'm wrong. I know everyone wants to believe they have a Confederate sword, I don't think it is a College Hill variety as mentioned earlier with that stopped fuller. Maybe someone else can come up with a different maker with more charactisics that match than I did with the Horstmann, but I think I matched almost everything. I've nothing else to give here.

 

[bobinwmass]

Sorry, guess I do have one more thing to add. I think you may be misreading Thillmann. He says the width of the blade of all three at the ricssso is 1 1/4 inches, I believe that would be sideways across the blade from "sharp" edge to flat spine. I do not see where he may indicate measurement of ricasso to beginning of fuller.

 

[Jonl51]

Sorry, guess I do have one more thing to add. I think you may be misreading Thillmann. He says the width of the blade of all three at the ricssso is 1 1/4 inches, I believe that would be sideways across the blade from "sharp" edge to flat spine. I do not see where he may indicate measurement of ricasso to beginning of fuller.

Yes you are correct I misread Thillman (page 221) that 1 1/4 inches is the width of
the blade at the ricasso. Mine measures
1 1/8 at the ricasso. On the same page he says the wide fuller is 24 inches and the
narrow fuller is 16 inches. On mine they measure 24 1/2 and 14 1/2 respectively on the short bladed M1840 Cavalry Officers saber. It may very well be a Horstmann in spite of these differences in measurements. I will attempt to clean more of the crud off the blade near the ricasso to see if any markings are being covered. Thank you for
your help and info! Jonl51

 

[R. Porter]

In looking at this sword, my first impression was that the grip was a replacement. That means that the hilt had to be removed. That means that the hilt and blade may not actually go together. When the hilt was attached to the blade it seems that solder was used to firm everything up. That doesn't sound like a repair done at an armory or by someone who knew what he was doing. Either it was put back in commission by someone desperate for a weapon who didn't have anything to work with or it was picked up off of the battlefield sometime after the battle when the grip had deteriorated and the relic hunter wanted to make it functional again or, at least, look functional again.

The resemblance between the Horstmann sword and this sword is striking, but not identical. The Horstmann sword has a German blade with unstopped fullers. This sword has stopped fullers. Thomas Griswold made an officer's cavalry sword with stopped fullers and that French trait of how the branches attach to the knuckle bow just before it reaches the pommel. The illustration of his officer's sword shows a different and decorated style where it meets the pommel. (This is from Bezdek's book on Civil War swords, p. 248.) McElroy had an officer's sword with a similar guard and decorated branches using a blade with stopped fullers, but it had a cavalry looking pommel, not the infantry sword looking one on this sword. Also, I couldn't help but think that a 32 inch blade sounds more like a mounted infantry officer than a cavalry officer, who might have a 34 inch blade while his troopers had 35 and 36 inch blades.

I noticed the cartouche stamp on the blades of swords by Sharp and Hamilton in Albaugh's Photographic Supplement, p. 146 – p. 148. These were on blades with stopped fullers, or perhaps what some would call semi-stopped fullers. They seem to be poorly done so I'm not sure what you would classify them as. The hilt looks like a poor copy of the Horstmann hilt to me too.

So, perhaps this sword is a new, unrecognized cavalry sword by Sharp and Hamilton, or maybe a mashup between a Sharp and Hamilton blade and someone else's hilt that looks a lot like a Horstmann hilt but not done as well. I'm not an expert by any means. I couldn't say if this is Confederate. I don't think it's Union, I don't think it's Horstmann at present, but I could be wrong. I don't know what kinds of reproductions have been made in the past that might have been mixed and matched and left outside long enough to make it look like a relic, but it's been a while since the centennial so it could have aged naturally. I'm sure there are other possibilities, but I'm not experienced enough to know what they are. I do like the problem it represents in trying to figure out what it is.

 

[bobinwmass]

In looking at this sword, my first impression was that the grip was a replacement. That means that the hilt had to be removed. That means that the hilt and blade may not actually go together. When the hilt was attached to the blade it seems that solder was used to firm everything up. That doesn't sound like a repair done at an armory or by someone who knew what he was doing. Either it was put back in commission by someone desperate for a weapon who didn't have anything to work with or it was picked up off of the battlefield sometime after the battle when the grip had deteriorated and the relic hunter wanted to make it functional again or, at least, look functional again.

The resemblance between the Horstmann sword and this sword is striking, but not identical. The Horstmann sword has a German blade with unstopped fullers. This sword has stopped fullers. Thomas Griswold made an officer's cavalry sword with stopped fullers and that French trait of how the branches attach to the knuckle bow just before it reaches the pommel. The illustration of his officer's sword shows a different and decorated style where it meets the pommel. (This is from Bezdek's book on Civil War swords, p. 248.) McElroy had an officer's sword with a similar guard and decorated branches using a blade with stopped fullers, but it had a cavalry looking pommel, not the infantry sword looking one on this sword. Also, I couldn't help but think that a 32 inch blade sounds more like a mounted infantry officer than a cavalry officer, who might have a 34 inch blade while his troopers had 35 and 36 inch blades.

I noticed the cartouche stamp on the blades of swords by Sharp and Hamilton in Albaugh's Photographic Supplement, p. 146 – p. 148. These were on blades with stopped fullers, or perhaps what some would call semi-stopped fullers. They seem to be poorly done so I'm not sure what you would classify them as. The hilt looks like a poor copy of the Horstmann hilt to me too.

So, perhaps this sword is a new, unrecognized cavalry sword by Sharp and Hamilton, or maybe a mashup between a Sharp and Hamilton blade and someone else's hilt that looks a lot like a Horstmann hilt but not done as well. I'm not an expert by any means. I couldn't say if this is Confederate. I don't think it's Union, I don't think it's Horstmann at present, but I could be wrong. I don't know what kinds of reproductions have been made in the past that might have been mixed and matched and left outside long enough to make it look like a relic, but it's been a while since the centennial so it could have aged naturally. I'm sure there are other possibilities, but I'm not experienced enough to know what they are. I do like the problem it represents in trying to figure out what it is.

The Horstmann blade also has stopped fullers, not sure where you got the fuller is unstopped. Look at Thillmann's book page 220, 2nd photo down in right column. It shows what I believe is this saber, the short plain bladed variety with 2 line stamped address and very short ricasso. Perhaps you were looking at the photo on page 218, but in that photo, because of the angle, I believe the guard is blocking the view of the relatively small ricasso.

 

[Jonl51]

The Horstmann blade also has stopped fullers, not sure where you got the fuller is unstopped. Look at Thillmann's book page 220, 2nd photo down in right column. It shows what I believe is this saber, the short plain bladed variety with 2 line stamped address and very short ricasso. Perhaps you were looking at the photo on page 218, but in that photo, because of the angle, I believe the guard is blocking the view of the relatively small ricasso.

While the saber resembles a Horstmann, the blade does not have the Horstmann makers stamp which is easily discernible
and with distinct die stamped lettering. This saber has one impressed line on the obverse and two impressed lines on the
reverse. I have carefully attempted to remove the rust and corrosion within these
lines to see if there would be lettering/ makers mark, etc. These are narrow lines
and to see any lettering one would best use
some magnification. It does seem that lettering was present, see picture, but so
far I can't make it out yet. I was hoping this
particular style of these impressed lines in the ricasso might give a clue about the maker. Close examination of the brass
on both the guard and pommel reveal extensive file marks. The general quality
just doesn't seem up to Horstmann standards. Thanks to all for the help and
insights! Jonl51

 

[bobinwmass]

While the saber resembles a Horstmann, the blade does not have the Horstmann makers stamp which is easily discernible
and with distinct die stamped lettering. This saber has one impressed line on the obverse and two impressed lines on the
reverse. I have carefully attempted to remove the rust and corrosion within these
lines to see if there would be lettering/ makers mark, etc. These are narrow lines
and to see any lettering one would best use
some magnification. It does seem that lettering was present, see picture, but so
far I can't make it out yet. I was hoping this
particular style of these impressed lines in the ricasso might give a clue about the maker. Close examination of the brass
on both the guard and pommel reveal extensive file marks. The general quality
just doesn't seem up to Horstmann standards. Thanks to all for the help and
insights! Jonl51

View attachment 402170

View attachment 402171

It does like someone may have taken a tool (as if with a dremel but doesn't look recent) and may have purposely ground a line through the rows of letters. But more interesting to me is your final photo, it appears to me that the kingshead maker mark of Gebruder Weyersburg is still visible. They made, and their mark is on, many of Horstmann's officer blades, including mine. In fact, in his book in the Weyersburg section, Thillmann shows a saber with the Weyersburg kingshead mark and no Horstmann markings, but with the Horstmann style hilt. Thillmann feels it was hilted by Horstmann even though their name was left off for some unknown reason. Your hilt does display 2 distinctive Horstmann features to keep in mind as you continue to compare to other swords. The first is the way the pommel flares out as you approach the end, then drops off until it reaches the pommel tang dome. From the side it does look like a trumpet with a bowl coming out of the middle. Few other sabers have the same profile. But more distinctive is where the knucklebow meets the pommel cap. Most cavalry officer sabers have some sort of decoration there. The Horstmann saber is the only maker in Thillmann's entire book ( except the Weyersburg saber that Thillmann feels was hilted by Horstmann) that has that simple unadorned notch. Use those 2 characteristics to rule out other makers as you continue your search.

 

[bobinwmass]

For those of you who may not have a reference book and would like to compare, here are a couple Gerbruder Weyersburg kingshead maker marks off a couple of my Horstmann officer swords.

 

[Jonl51]

It does like someone may have taken a tool (as if with a dremel but doesn't look recent) and may have purposely ground a line through the rows of letters. But more interesting to me is your final photo, it appears to me that the kingshead maker mark of Gebruder Weyersburg is still visible. They made, and their mark is on, many of Horstmann's officer blades, including mine. In fact, in his book in the Weyersburg section, Thillmann shows a saber with the Weyersburg kingshead mark and no Horstmann markings, but with the Horstmann style hilt. Thillmann feels it was hilted by Horstmann even though their name was left off for some unknown reason. Your hilt does display 2 distinctive Horstmann features to keep in mind as you continue to compare to other swords. The first is the way the pommel flares out as you approach the end, then drops off until it reaches the pommel tang dome. From the side it does look like a trumpet with a bowl coming out of the middle. Few other sabers have the same profile. But more distinctive is where the knucklebow meets the pommel cap. Most cavalry officer sabers have some sort of decoration there. The Horstmann saber is the only maker in Thillmann's entire book ( except the Weyersburg saber that Thillmann feels was hilted by Horstmann) that has that simple unadorned notch. Use those 2 characteristics to rule out other makers as you continue your search.

I believe that is just some of the rust/ black corrosion rather than the remnants of the king's head mark. I agree regarding the significance of the plain notched knuckle bow and style of the pommel in making a
comparison to other sabers. I don't think someone cut the lines in the ricasso, it appears the blade was made that way.
Pretty sure there was lettering in at
least the shorter second line on the reverse
side. Most if not all letters have been lost to
the corrosion I'm afraid. Thanks again. Jonl51

 

[R. Porter]

The Horstmann blade also has stopped fullers, not sure where you got the fuller is unstopped. Look at Thillmann's book page 220, 2nd photo down in right column. It shows what I believe is this saber, the short plain bladed variety with 2 line stamped address and very short ricasso. Perhaps you were looking at the photo on page 218, but in that photo, because of the angle, I believe the guard is blocking the view of the relatively small ricasso.

I think you're right. Chalk it up to bad proof reading before posting in time to get three hours sleep before getting up to go to work. I think I was referring to the Horstmann example posted in this thread, but I was probably also thinking about the Sharp and Hamilton example posted here with unstopped fullers whereas the examples of Sharp and Hamilton I had seen were sort-of stopped fullers.

Actually, I got my hands on a sword today that fits into this discussion. I'll have to charge up my old Iphone5 to take pictures of it so that I can post them using my computer with the operating system Windows 7.

 

[R. Porter]

After looking at Thillmann's cavalry sword book more closely and also at the sword I got yesterday, I am confident that this sword is 100% Horstmann and that the blade and hilt go together and are not a mashup. On page 220 of Thillmann's book, he lists three versions of Horstmann stamped blade marks found on the short bladed officer's sword that are less often seen. The second of these was HORSTMANN & SONS on the obverse ricasso in two lines and PHILADELPHIA on the reverse ricasso. These were not in a depressed channel, but I suspect that a determined individual with a gouge or abrasive tool was not necessary to create the small channels now found on the ricassos of this sword. I am willing to bet that exposure to moisture and freeze-thaw action over time would crack and erode the metal surface into which the letters were stamped. The blade does show considerable weathering. The traits of the hilt including the area where the knuckle bow meets the pommel, the pommel shape, and the lack of decoration on the quillon are described by Thillmann; everything on this sword is accounted for by identifying it as made by Horstmann. But, we may be able to say a little more about it.

Pulling out the old Horstmann book, we see that the company was founded by W. H. Horstmann. He did not create a partnership with his sons until January, 1843. This was when the firm became William H. Horstmann & Sons, making the date stamp on the sword blade later than some time in January 1843. Horstmann Brothers & Company was formed in 1858. Bazelon on p. 56 seems to indicate that the old William H. Horstmann & Sons continued to exist but that the military goods aspect of the business went over to Horstmann Brothers & Company. Further, while there were swords associated with the older Horstmann company, the shift towards a greater business in military goods in the early 1850's. That would suggest that the sword dates between about 1850 and 1858. If this is a reasonable assumption, then the sword could have been used by either side during the war, just like the various contract S&K sabers.

 

[Jonl51]

After looking at Thillmann's cavalry sword book more closely and also at the sword I got yesterday, I am confident that this sword is 100% Horstmann and that the blade and hilt go together and are not a mashup. On page 220 of Thillmann's book, he lists three versions of Horstmann stamped blade marks found on the short bladed officer's sword that are less often seen. The second of these was HORSTMANN & SONS on the obverse ricasso in two lines and PHILADELPHIA on the reverse ricasso. These were not in a depressed channel, but I suspect that a determined individual with a gouge or abrasive tool was not necessary to create the small channels now found on the ricassos of this sword. I am willing to bet that exposure to moisture and freeze-thaw action over time would crack and erode the metal surface into which the letters were stamped. The blade does show considerable weathering. The traits of the hilt including the area where the knuckle bow meets the pommel, the pommel shape, and the lack of decoration on the quillon are described by Thillmann; everything on this sword is accounted for by identifying it as made by Horstmann. But, we may be able to say a little more about it.

Pulling out the old Horstmann book, we see that the company was founded by W. H. Horstmann. He did not create a partnership with his sons until January, 1843. This was when the firm became William H. Horstmann & Sons, making the date stamp on the sword blade later than some time in January 1843. Horstmann Brothers & Company was formed in 1858. Bazelon on p. 56 seems to indicate that the old William H. Horstmann & Sons continued to exist but that the military goods aspect of the business went over to Horstmann Brothers & Company. Further, while there were swords associated with the older Horstmann company, the shift towards a greater business in military goods in the early 1850's. That would suggest that the sword dates between about 1850 and 1858. If this is a reasonable assumption, then the sword could have been used by either side during the war, just like the various contract S&K sabers.

That is interesting information on Horstmann and there certainly are similarities as mentioned previously. On my
sword on the obverse there is one line and
the reverse has the two lines. Your theory of
freeze/ thaw effects creating these recessed lines is a stretch I think. These lines are uniform in shape with the top and bottom sides being slanted creating almost a "V", however the deepest part of the V is
flat. Freeze/ thaw would not likely create such uniformity. It also seems that any letters were raised rather than recessed as
most CW makers stamps are. However I'm
not positive of this yet. I do think it could have been made by Horstmann in spite of
these differences, but a poor quality version
not typical of their work. The wood grip shape looks similar to the grip shape on some of the College Hill swords, as does
the pommel and location of where the knucklebow meets the pommel. College Hill also used stopped fullers and pen knife
style blades, and short ricassos on some of
their swords. I have not seen an example however with the recessed lines on the obverse and reverse. Actually none of my
reference books show a College Hill makers mark and I would love to see what
they looked like. Thank you for your help and information. Best. Jonl51

 

[gjpratt]

That is interesting information on Horstmann and there certainly are similarities as mentioned previously. On my
sword on the obverse there is one line and
the reverse has the two lines. Your theory of
freeze/ thaw effects creating these recessed lines is a stretch I think. These lines are uniform in shape with the top and bottom sides being slanted creating almost a "V", however the deepest part of the V is
flat. Freeze/ thaw would not likely create such uniformity. It also seems that any letters were raised rather than recessed as
most CW makers stamps are. However I'm
not positive of this yet. I do think it could have been made by Horstmann in spite of
these differences, but a poor quality version
not typical of their work. The wood grip shape looks similar to the grip shape on some of the College Hill swords, as does
the pommel and location of where the knucklebow meets the pommel. College Hill also used stopped fullers and pen knife
style blades, and short ricassos on some of
their swords. I have not seen an example however with the recessed lines on the obverse and reverse. Actually none of my
reference books show a College Hill makers mark and I would love to see what
they looked like. Thank you for your help and information. Best. Jonl51

There are no known College Hill swords or sabers with maker's marks. They were identified by the signature of the blade etcher on a few etched swords, L. T. Cunningham, who was also the owner of the College Hill arsenal.

I have been researching College Hill, Sharp & Hamilton/Nashville Plow Works for several years as more newspapers and archives and databases have become available online. 9I am a native Nashvillian). My objective is to one day publish a book or monograph, but I am a long way from uncovering enough new information to do so. There are many unanswered questions about the short war time operations of these two Confederate sword makers. I have learned a lot by forensically examining and categorizing as many specimens as I can locate and their provenance. There are enough surviving College Hill presentation swords to support a few reasonable deductions and/or working hypotheses. For example, most of these surviving swords are high quality staff & field versions and trace back to the capture of their owners at Ft. Donelson. Drilling down, there are many geographic connections of the soldiers whose names are on the presentation to Nashville or the vicinity of Nashville. For the swords that do not have a presentation, many units that were captured at Donelson mustered into Confederate service in the vicinity of Nashville. Mr. Cunningham obviously had a thriving retail business as these officer swords were not Government supplied.

 

[Jonl51]

Very interesting and a worthwhile project. Here is a picture of a type of College Hill cavalry saber courtesy of Richard Bezdek's
" Swords of The American Civil War", page 240, although not an officer's saber. Have you come across a similar cavalry style in your College Hill research? Thank you!
Regards, Jonl51