Guerrilla armament

[Booner]

The don't have to be issued, it seems whenever guerrillas rode into a ungarrisoned town, Unionist shopkeepers were very generous with their contributions, sometimes practically offering everything they had, including small arms, caps and powder

I believe the Union supplied the Mo. Guerrillias with most of their arms.
But early in the war, things were different. The guerrillias hadnt defeated enough federals yet to fully arm themselves. Thus when a man joined the guerrillias he had to bring what ever he had at home. I don't remember who it was, but one young man was allowed to join Q because he had his own pistol. John McCorkle was made a scout because all he had with him when joined was a rifle.

 

[zburkett]

Don't I remember reading the Bill Anderson had six or eight revolvers on him when he was killed? If I do remember correctly it was all revolvers, not extra cylinders. While we are on the subject, does anyone know it the stocks you could attach to a revolver to make it a carbine were used to any extent?

 

[archieclement]

I believe the Union supplied the Mo. Guerrillias with most of their arms.
But early in the war, things were different. The guerrillias hadnt defeated enough federals yet to fully arm themselves. Thus when a man joined the guerrillias he had to bring what ever he had at home. I don't remember who it was, but one young man was allowed to join Q because he had his own pistol. John McCorkle was made a scout because all he had with him when joined was a rifle.

wouldn't underestimate private sources other then self brought. think quite a few were gave by sympathizers, shopkeeper donations, and have seen several accounts of using spies/sympathizers to go to larger garrisoned towns to buy caps

 

[archieclement]

Don't I remember reading the Bill Anderson had six or eight revolvers on him when he was killed? If I do remember correctly it was all revolvers, not extra cylinders. While we are on the subject, does anyone know it the stocks you could attach to a revolver to make it a carbine were used to any extent?

why would extra cylinders be noted? most accounts of guerrilla deaths don't have itemized accounts of every possession, would assume if one had a unusually large amount like Archie carrying 12 it might be noted as it stands out, but haven't seen any account mention what else was on him or his horse.

Seldom see knifes mentioned as personal effects, though we know they carried them as well

 

[Booner]

Don't I remember reading the Bill Anderson had six or eight revolvers on him when he was killed? If I do remember correctly it was all revolvers, not extra cylinders. While we are on the subject, does anyone know it the stocks you could attach to a revolver to make it a carbine were used to any extent?

I've seen a list of items that Capt. Andeson had on him when he died. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[archieclement]

I've seen a list of items that Capt. Andeson had on him when he died. I'll see if I can find it.

The account I've seen is effects that were on him personally, its in Castels. It says he has 2 pistols in his hands, 2 in holster on his hip, and 2 more in holsters on horse...curious thing it doesn't seem to detail what else was on the horse.

 

[byron ed]

Nope just a modern thing.

I've been duped then. Here's some sold as "Civil War reproduction cylinder pouch" by various sutlers:

I feel stupid, should have researched it.

 

[Booner]

That didnt take long. It was in the first book I picked up? Larry Woods book on Bloody Bill Anderson.
The feds found on Anderson's body:
6 revolvers
$600 in gold and treasury notes
Orders from Gen. Price
Pictures of Anderson & his wife
A letter from his wife
A lock of her hair
One gold watch
One silver watch
A small, pocket sized Confederate flag
And, according to legend, a silk cord with 53 knots in it, one for each union man Anderson killed, after he Lawrence Raid.

His horse had one scalp dangling from the bridle

 

[Booner]

I've been duped then. I assumed these were legitimate reproductions based on a period pattern since they are sold as Civil War reproduction cylinder pouches. Here they are from different sutlers:
View attachment 213040 View attachment 213041 View attachment 213042 View attachment 213043

Until tonight I've never seen anything like that. The second and third picture look like cartridges boxes until I see the wooden devise with the dowel rods in it to hold the cylinder.

 

[archieclement]

That didnt take long. It was in the first book I picked up? Larry Woods book on Bloody Bill Anderson.
The feds found on Anderson's body:
6 revolvers
$600 in gold and treasury notes
Orders from Gen. Price
Pictures of Anderson & his wife
A letter from his wife
A lock of her hair
One gold watch
One silver watch
A small, pocket sized Confederate flag
And, according to legend, a silk cord with 53 knots in it, one for each union man Anderson killed, after he Lawrence Raid.

His horse had one scalp dangling from the bridle

That's what Castel says, but Castel says all but 2 pistols and holsters and scalp were found on or in pockets of Anderson, wouldn't he have had saddle bags?

And as I noted before no mention of knife as personal effect, yet he could take scalps which usually involves....a knife

 

[TomV71]

I've been duped then. Here's some sold as "Civil War reproduction cylinder pouch" by various sutlers:
I feel stupid, should have researched it.

Yes, reproductions. As i said, these are all over. But they are not reproductions of any original.
Show me an original and I will rest my case.

 

[Booner]

That's what Castel says, but Castel says all but 2 pistols and holsters and scalp were found on or in pockets of Anderson, wouldn't he have had saddle bags?

And as I noted before no mention of knife as personal effect, yet he could take scalps which usually involves....a knife

Well my book says these items were found on his body, and he was wearing a guerrilla shirt with those big pockets.

And maybe Archie gave him the scalp?

 

[byron ed]

Yes, reproductions. As i said, these are all over. But they are not reproductions of any original. Show me an original and I will rest my case.

I see now that's probably so. I can find no images of original CW cylinder pouch artifacts.*

Let's rest the case, or shall we say the pouch, then. I can live with having been duped by sutlers.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* I found one original of U.S. Navy SpanAm war provenance, a double cylinder pouch.

 

[archieclement]

Well my book says these items were found on his body, and he was wearing a guerrilla shirt with those big pockets.

And maybe Archie gave him the scalp?

Castel notes 2 of the revolvers were found in holsters on the horse nearby, but doesn't note anything else on the horse. As the cord isnt listed found on the body, would assume its a incomplete listing of his effects not including the horse.

Personally have hard time thinking their was no saddlebags/ haversack, or blanket or coat, or any personal effects whatsoever with the horse. If your living and camping in the brush.....dealing with horses, leather goods, rope, even skinning game or simply eating, imagine your going to carry a knife...… Mabye not a foot and half bowie, but some type of knife...…...

 

[Booner]

Castel notes 2 of the revolvers were found in holsters on the horse nearby, but doesn't note anything else on the horse. As the cord isnt listed found on the body, would assume its a incomplete listing of his effects not including the horse.

Personally have hard time thinking their was no saddlebags/ haversack, or blanket or coat, or any personal effects whatsoever with the horse. If your living and camping in the brush.....dealing with horses, leather goods, rope, even skinning game or simply eating, imagine your going to carry a knife...… Mabye not a foot and half bowie, but some type of knife...…...

If my memory serves, (and sometimes it does,) Anderson's men were lounging around a farm house, getting ready to eat when a squad of Cox's men (was it Cox?), Attacts them and then run off. Anderson has his men chase after the squad as an immediate response, so unless they had all thier gear on them or their horses, it as probably left back in camp.

Thus the value of the guerrillia shirt and those big pockets. You can keep a lot of items on yourself at all times.

 

[Patrick H]

yet he could take scalps which usually involves....a knife

But, Archie, Bill had Archie Clements for that!

 

[archieclement]

If my memory serves, (and sometimes it does,) Anderson's men were lounging around a farm house, getting ready to eat when a squad of Cox's men (was it Cox?), Attacts them and then run off. Anderson has his men chase after the squad as an immediate response, so unless they had all thier gear on them or their horses, it as probably left back in camp.

Thus the value of the guerrillia shirt and those big pockets. You can keep a lot of items on yourself at all times.

Would think they generally did have all their gear on them, as they generally lived in the saddle and on the move, they weren't in Texas or winter camp.

Castel has him "near Albany" on the morning of the 26th having moved through Carroll County the day before, Cox midday the next day encounters Andersons pickets a mile from Albany the next day, they chase them to Albany, through Albany and out the other side of Albany where Cox sets an ambush. Andersons attack comes after they had chased the pickets out the other side of Albany. From this its hard to tell if they were in camp or on the move when attacked at midday. It would appear the initial contact was miles from wherever the main body was. Cox returns to Richmond the same day with Andersons body from Albany, he doesn't mention any camp nor looked for it if he suspected one.

 

[mofederal]

Lt. Col. Cox got two pistols, his horse and a silver watch, the Bugler Vogel got one pistol and his hat. I think the money was split among the soldiers. General Craig got 2 pistols and the gold watch and the other items on Anderson's body. I think Anderson had six pistols in all. Bill had a picture of his wife and a letter from her, two small Confederate flags on him, the corded knot, and other official papers and federal paper money, gold and silver coins, something like $600. The shirt I guess he was buried in. I saw a copy of Cox's report to Craig, and it also talked about the allotment of the items from Anderson's body, also Vogel gave his own account of what happened during and after the battle. Vogel's interview was carried in the Moberly Evening Democrat a newspaper, I can't remember the year it appeared. Cox wrote a book later in his life, and he wrote more about Anderson's last fight. I would like to see a copy of it again. I don't think Castel or Goodrich either one listed it as a source. The most detailed account of what was on Anderson's body was written by an anonymous officer of the HQ. 33rd Enrolled Missouri Militia in Hamilton, Mo. It was published in several newspapers in Liberty, KC and Kingston, Mo., from Oct to Nov. in 1864. It was reprinted in the Richmond Daily News on Nov. 19, 1986. I have never seen the article. The corded silk with the 53 knots from Anderson's body still exists in a private collection.

 

[archieclement]

Lt. Col. Cox got two pistols, his horse and a silver watch, the Bugler Vogel got one pistol and his hat. I think the money was split among the soldiers. General Craig got 2 pistols and the gold watch and the other items on Anderson's body. I think Anderson had six pistols in all. Bill had a picture of his wife and a letter from her, two small Confederate flags on him, the corded knot, and other official papers and federal paper money, gold and silver coins, something like $600. The shirt I guess he was buried in. I saw a copy of Cox's report to Craig, and it also talked about the allotment of the items from Anderson's body, also Vogel gave his own account of what happened during and after the battle. Vogel's interview was carried in the Moberly Evening Democrat a newspaper, I can't remember the year it appeared. Cox wrote a book later in his life, and he wrote more about Anderson's last fight. I would like to see a copy of it again. I don't think Castel or Goodrich either one listed it as a source. The most detailed account of what was on Anderson's body was written by an anonymous officer of the HQ. 33rd Enrolled Missouri Militia in Hamilton, Mo. It was published in several newspapers in Liberty, KC and Kingston, Mo., from Oct to Nov. in 1864. It was reprinted in the Richmond Daily News on Nov. 19, 1986. I have never seen the article. The corded silk with the 53 knots from Anderson's body still exists in a private collection.

To me that's the sad thing, we know very little even today, what we think we know is usually based on conjecture, Castel and Nichols both wrote about this in modern works of the last 10 yrs or so, Castel puts Cox's strength at 300, Nichols at 150......the only accounts are from one side and even they are limited. Think accounts of Andersons strength vary from 100-200.
Cox after winning makes no attempt to look for a camp if he suspected one, or to even pursue the defeated guerrillas at all. Which seems strange as the guerrillas lost 7 dead, based on typical engagements they would have had numerous wounded, some of who could have been rounded up with pursuit

Its like the silk cord and mistreatment of Andersons body, most all sources will mention both, even if they don't definitely rule on either.....They even a lot of times have photo's of the silk cord with knots.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

That didnt take long. It was in the first book I picked up? Larry Woods book on Bloody Bill Anderson.
The feds found on Anderson's body:
6 revolvers
$600 in gold and treasury notes
Orders from Gen. Price
Pictures of Anderson & his wife
A letter from his wife
A lock of her hair
One gold watch
One silver watch
A small, pocket sized Confederate flag
And, according to legend, a silk cord with 53 knots in it, one for each union man Anderson killed, after he Lawrence Raid.

His horse had one scalp dangling from the bridle

I don't have that book, but have read that list somewhere else. Agree with your earlier post regarding how Missouri guerrillas armed themselves. I have read from multiple sources Missourians routinely supplied from captured Union equipment. Some of it left on the ground and/or bodies of dead soldiers after battles and some from captured wagons. I suspect soldiers become adept at scrounging through the gear of the dead to rearm after battle. Read any account of Champion Hill. One thing that stands out is that Bowen's Division went into battle with no more than 40 rounds per man without conventional resupply, because Pemberton sent the ordnance train back west across the Big Black River bridge before Cockrell and Green stepped off. They quickly ran out of their own ammo and were forced to rummage through the cartridge boxes of downed Yankees to keep up the fight, as they charged up the hill to the house. They wrecked one Union Division and put two more to flight before completely running out of ammo from all sources.