NF Grant Episode 2: Reviews!

[Rusk County Avengers]

Okay the watch party thread is long...

So lets hear everyone's final verdicts here!

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Okay, my review of this episode....

This show started at the very bottom, and went down in the world....

For me Episode 1, even with its downright disgraceful portrayal of soldiers and leaders, still had the redeeming character of the talking heads being there to straighten it out. That did not happen in this episode!

The disgraceful portrayal's graduated to downright comical, and then we got the REAL experts swept under a blanket somewhere and replaced with downright imbeciles spouting off ridiculous statements! A favorite being "They could burn or the soldiers could take their revolvers and kill themselves." which complete nonsense as most soldiers, and practically all of them at the Wilderness with the lack of cavalry had no revolvers! But we still had the great Guelzo, even if we got to see his almost reverse Lost Cause worship of Lincoln which is understandable. He is a Lincoln author after all.

If you thought Halleck was a parody of Boss Hogg, wait till you see Lincoln! If you thought it couldn't get any worse just wait till you see the Confederates!

And don't forget the Great Mississippi Desert the siege happened in according to the show. Just like in Episode 1 you wouldn't care but they showed the real sights and tried to blend them in.

It was so over the top at the beginning of the Wilderness I was waiting for Fortunate Son to start playing because it looked like a parody of Vietnam.

Then there's some ridiculous stiff all over the place. Memorable being Lee telling an aid Grant won't retreat becuase he met him, which is complete fabrication from a historical point of view.

I have noticed the portrayals of life away from battlefields has remained consistently good, so we have that to look forward to tomorrow I guess, but this episode was painful to watch.

 

[GrantCottage1885]

My only disappointment is that his relationship with his wife and children during the war has been ignored so far. Grant also lost a brother 35 yrs (1861) and sister 36yrs (1865) during the war. That being said I enjoyed this episode a bit more than the first one, but I'm not sure how they are going to fit the 20 years comprising the end of the war, post-war, presidency, world tour, cancer, memoirs, funeral and legacy all in the last episode. Hoping for a bit more of a personal portrait of the private life of Grant in the final episode.

 

[Zack]

Memorable being Lee telling an aid Grant won't retreat becuase he met him, which is complete fabrication from a historical point of view.

This comes from Chernow's book. The quote on page 384:
One other person who understood that Grant was quite unlike his predecessors was his chief antagonist: Robert E. Lee. As both sides buried their dead, General Gordon boasted that there was "no doubt but that Grant is retreating." "You are mistaken," Lee corrected him, "quite mistaken. Grant is not retreating; he is not a retreating man."

Slightly different than how it is presented in the episode, but the grain of truth is there. There is a citation for this but I'm working off Google Books so can't check it.

 

[Pat Answer]

Same as yesterday. Ultimately, this is caught between biography and history of the war, between revealing individual portrait and commentaries on past and present. The best this can do is inspire those who don't know much about him to look deeper. As it stands, this lacks... focus (a poor reflection on the dogged single-mindedness of its subject LOL!).

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

This comes from Chernow's book. The quote on page 384:
One other person who understood that Grant was quite unlike his predecessors was his chief antagonist: Robert E. Lee. As both sides buried their dead, General Gordon boasted that there was "no doubt but that Grant is retreating." "You are mistaken," Lee corrected him, "quite mistaken. Grant is not retreating; he is not a retreating man."

Slightly different than how it is presented in the episode, but the grain of truth is there. There is a citation for this but I'm working off Google Books so can't check it.

Ohhhh, okay. What was his source? To be honest if the source is Gordon I'd be doubtful of its validity.

 

[luinrina]

Haven't seen it yet, will comment later after I've done so.

Ohhhh, okay. What was his source? To be honest if the source is Gordon I'd be doubtful of its validity.

I too thought it would be Gordon but it's apparently:

GPL. S2 B13 F26. "Walt Whitman"

That stands for Ulysses S. Grant Presidential Library, Mississippi State University, Starkville, Mississippi (S=Series, B=Box, F=Folder)

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Haven't seen it yet, will comment later after I've done so.


I too thought it would be Gordon but it's apparently:

That stands for Ulysses S. Grant Presidential Library, Mississippi State University, Starkville, Mississippi (S=Series, B=Box, F=Folder)

Pretty sure Walt Whitman wasn't at a Confederate staff meeting....

 

[luinrina]

Right, that made me wonder too. I just checked again - it's easy to make a mistake, especially when it's just 6 a.m. here - and true, I missed the actual footnote. I only saw the footnote at the end of the paragraph, not the one right behind the quote. My apologies!

So it's

Dorsett, "The Problem of Ulysses S. Grant's Drinking During the Civil War."

It's an article by Lyle W. Dorsett in The Hayes Historical Journal 4 no. 2 (fall 1983).

 

[J. D. Stevens]

Last night, my comment to Episode #1 was the number of commercials. Episode #2 did not alleviate that opinion, although I am well aware making this program was costly and the producers probably did not invest in it with the goal of losing money. Therefore, I sat in a straight back chair tonight to prevent falling asleep during the commercials, stop watch in hand, and timed 7 segments of the show and the commercials following each. Blame it on my engineering mentality or being stuck at home for the past couple months, but here is what I came up with and I make no apologies:
Longest show segment = 10 minutes
Shortest show segment = 5 minutes, 20 seconds
Average show time of the 7 segments = 8 minutes, 30 seconds for a total of 60 minutes
Longest commercial segment = 4 minutes, 50 seconds
Shortest commercial segment = 4 minutes
Average commercial time after the 7 segments = 4 minutes, 30 seconds for a total of 31 minutes

After seven segments, my back was stiff so I moved over to my easy chair. The 8th segment was 6 minutes, 15 seconds, but I fell asleep during the commercial and did not wake up till 33 minutes and 17 seconds had elapsed, but the show was over so it doesn't count.

With all that said, I did enjoy Episode #2 for the most part. I was a little disappointed the Battle of Champion Hill did not mention how important it was to the loss of Vicksburg and Timothy Smith was not used to comment or describe the battle in the few seconds allotted to it. The writers made up for that error by mentioning General Lee's comment when he was told the Texas Brigade was arriving at the Battle of the Wilderness, "Those Texas Boys will stand and fight all day."

As for the commercials, one short Cheeto commercial was funny and worth watching.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Right, that made me wonder too. I just checked again - it's easy to make a mistake, especially when it's just 6 a.m. here - and true, I missed the actual footnote. I only saw the footnote at the end of the paragraph, not the one right behind the quote. My apologies!

So it's
It's an article by Lyle W. Dorsett in The Hayes Historical Journal 4 no. 2 (fall 1983).

Okay appreciate your 6 a.m. efforts. I'm still skeptical of this happening though, it just doesn't match up. But it does sound like something Longstreet would say.

Now I feel bad getting you to hunting stuff in books so early.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Last night, my comment to Episode #1 was the number of commercials. Episode #2 did not alleviate that opinion, although I am well aware making this program was costly and the producers probably did not invest in it with the goal of losing money. Therefore, I sat in a straight back chair tonight to prevent falling asleep during the commercials, stop watch in hand, and timed 7 segments of the show and the commercials following each. Blame it on my engineering mentality or being stuck at home for the past couple months, but here is what I came up with and I make no apologies:
Longest show segment = 10 minutes
Shortest show segment = 5 minutes, 20 seconds
Average show time of the 7 segments = 8 minutes, 30 seconds for a total of 60 minutes
Longest commercial segment = 4 minutes, 50 seconds
Shortest commercial segment = 4 minutes
Average commercial time after the 7 segments = 4 minutes, 30 seconds for a total of 31 minutes

After seven segments, my back was stiff so I moved over to my easy chair. The 8th segment was 6 minutes, 15 seconds, but I fell asleep during the commercial and did not wake up till 33 minutes and 17 seconds had elapsed, but the show was over so it doesn't count.

With all that said, I did enjoy Episode #2 for the most part. I was a little disappointed the Battle of Champion Hill did not mention how important it was to the loss of Vicksburg and Timothy Smith was not used to comment or describe the battle in the few seconds allotted to it. The writers made up for that error by mentioning General Lee's comment when he was told the Texas Brigade was arriving at the Battle of the Wilderness, "Those Texas Boys will stand and fight all day."

As for the commercials, one short Cheeto commercial was funny and worth watching.

There was too many commercials, it gave the AMC channel a run for its money.

As for the Texans at the Wilderness, the portrayal had me clutching my face screaming "My eyes! My eyes!!!!" like the officer in the movie Fort Wagner scenes of Glory...

Its like setting up a group for stellar recognition then pushing them off the stage into a volcano. But this series' portrayals of everything are the worst I've ever seen. And I watch a lot of documentaries.

It goes back to the commercials, they had to have racked in a lot of dough with this, but if I were a betting man looking at the period extras and actors being unknowns, and them cutting shortcuts in every conceivable way, I would bet money they spent maybe between $40k and $60k on this show, an abyssal amount for something like this. If they spent more than that filming they need they're heads examined because it ain't worth more than that.

If they went over the $100k mark, then I eagerly await History's next bankruptcy, because even with so many commercials, they've been so discredited over the years with their Alien and reality show model I bet the advertisers didn't have to pay much for a commercial spot.

Indie studios like Lionheart are putting out stuff so superior by most people's admissions, History with its supposed resources is a disgrace.

 

[highplainsdrifter59]

It was the same commercials every time...I started pulling my ear hairs out!

 

[Zack]

I'll play contrarian here - I am really enjoying this series!

Admittedly, I was still working during the first hour, but I did my best to watch with my friend. And while, yes, there were a lot of commercials, we mostly used that time to talk about the show (and I used it to catch up on emails).

Is the show perfect? No. Are the uniforms and locations a mess? Yes. Are the fake beards laughable? Yah.

But I have consistently been pleasantly surprised by their coverage of the war. I was expecting a very surface level overview, and this is actually a lot deeper than that. Yes, by the standards of this forum it was skimming along a puddle. But how often have you seen the Corinth Campaign or the Chattanooga Campaign portrayed at all on television?

It hit most of the big moments of Grant's career. I enjoyed the scene where Sherman talked him out of leaving the army after Halleck sidelined him. I will admit I was frustrated with how they showed Grant's arrival in DC (the Willard Hotel incident is such a perfect encapsulation of his character as are the real circumstances of his meeting with Lincoln), but on multiple occasions I found that side comments I made to my friend were repeated by the narrator or talking heads. I especially appreciated the Fredericksburg-Spotsylvania park ranger.

Hell, I read Grant's "double somersault" quote about Lee to my friend over a commercial and it literally popped up in the next scene!

I certainly could drive myself crazy nitpicking the details, but I think the facts that matter were correct (yes, the pistol comment bothered me too. I remarked to my friend that eyewitnesses recalled soldiers placing the muzzle of their rifle under their chin and depressing the trigger with the ramrod).

Take Chattanooga. Here's how the show portrays it:
The Army of the Cumberland is bottled up after a major defeat. Grant comes in. He has his own men, the men of the Army of the Cumberland, and these transplants from the Army of the Potomac to wrangle. He gets them fighting together. On November 25, Sherman makes an attack on a portion of the enemy line but is unable to break through. Grant orders the Army of the Cumberland to support Sherman by attacking the first line of the rifle pits on Missionary Ridge. Spoiling for a fight and with the feeling they have something to prove, the Army of the Cumberland continues up Missionary Ridge and smashes through the rebel line.

Is that the entire story? No, of course not. But it's the broad outlines of it. And that's more than I expected to see in this documentary.

I also appreciated that they took so much time on the Battle of the Wilderness. Maybe I'm biased having made my own Civil War short film set during that battle (I will fight the urge to post a link), but it's a critical and savage battle that often gets lumped into the overall "Grant battered his way South, fighting Lee to a bloody draw before turning his flank and meeting again in another vicious battle."

Thanks in part to this documentary, for the first time, I actually realized how much of a mental strain that battle must have been for Grant. The eyes of the entire nation, always fixed more on the East than the West, were on him. If he messed up here, his career would be over. His life would be over. Though they didn't show it in the documentary, no wonder he smoked 20 cigars that first day and whittled away an entire stick and the brand-new gloves he was wearing. And after the comparatively bloodless victories out West, I realize how shocking that first report of casualties must have been. Again, no wonder he broke down crying.

Now, none of that is explicitly in the doc, but every new portrayal of the war opens up the possibility for your mind to come up with a new interpretation.

I have also found that my efforts to fact-check the show also taught me a lot more about the war. Such as the fact that Grant's cigar habit was overstated in part because of his intense smoking at the Wilderness. Or that Sherman was in fact involved somehow in Grant getting the nickname "Sam." Or that Lee may have had the conversation with Gordon we discussed above. It's also prompted me to start looking at Grant's memoirs. Maybe I'm the exception since I came in with a passion for studying the era already, but if the idea of the documentary is to spark interest it certainly succeeded in my book.

 

[Viper21]

I'm watching the series, because it's about the time period most of us are obsessed with. I didn't go into with the expectation that it would be great but, was hopeful. I think we're watching a poor presentation designed with the intent to elevate Grant, at the expense of everyone else, without a strict adherence to actual history, or representation.

I realize it would be impossible to make a fair show without a large budget, & some better casting. However, some of the comments, & visuals are pretty bad for anyone with more than elementary knowledge of the war. Seems it could've been done without trashing all the other characters. They would've done themselves a little better by, putting more effort into Lincoln, & Lee.

I'm sure the show will accomplish it's goal. To get more people interested, & to elevate Grant. Although, I would bet generally speaking, those more studied on the war, & it's characters are disappointed, regardless of their leanings.

Out of the historical mini series' they've put out the last few years, this one ranks the worst in my opinion. Sons of Liberty, the one of Washington, & Texas Rising, were all better done in my opinion, & much easier to watch. I would watch them all again. Doubt I'll watch this series again.

 

[OldSarge79]

I have, thus far, been moderately and pleasantly surprised. A little political correctness, which is a must these days, but generally a good portrayal, mostly focused on Grant.
It does seem to be building him up a little high, as such an unrecognized military genius that one could almost come to the conclusion that he won the whole war all by himself.
Don't get me wrong, he certainly does deserve a lot of credit. The right man in the right place at the right time.

One statement, however, caught my attention, when after the first day of the Wilderness, he says something like, "But they're tired too'" and "We have a PURPOSE," (something the Confederates didn't have). Now, just what was that supposed to be I wonder?

 

[matthew mckeon]

I think it was Longstreet that praised Grant to Lee in that scene, not Lee himself. I've heard the quote before. I'm having a hard time recognizing people because of all the beards.

I thought it did a pretty good job explaining Vicksburg, which was a complex operation, or series of operations.

The guy playing Lincoln...well......I did like the romantic music swelling up.

 

[dlavin]

Fundamental question since this is a show about Grant...does the show enhance your knowledge about Grant?

to me the answer is No and I have yet to read a book specifically to Grant. I'm hoping it changes with his I presidency but we will seee. So far I feel like it cherry picks his quotes that we all know and that's what we hear, and see gory battle scenes.

 

[wausaubob]

This comes from Chernow's book. The quote on page 384:
One other person who understood that Grant was quite unlike his predecessors was his chief antagonist: Robert E. Lee. As both sides buried their dead, General Gordon boasted that there was "no doubt but that Grant is retreating." "You are mistaken," Lee corrected him, "quite mistaken. Grant is not retreating; he is not a retreating man."

Slightly different than how it is presented in the episode, but the grain of truth is there. There is a citation for this but I'm working off Google Books so can't check it.

Lee could not remember Grant personally. But by May he had studied all of Grant's campaigns. He had to suspect that Grant would go after the Richmond railroads, and that there would be cavalry raids. From the events at Chattanooga, General Lee would have deduced that the administration had found the man it could back with the full power of northern industry. So the comment in the clip was most likely accurate, that General Lee knew the nature of the war had fundamentally changed.

 

[wausaubob]

I think they succeeded. Justin Salinger's portrayal of Grant is far better than any other portrayal. And when the series allowed Salinger to speak in Grant's own words, they are letting Grant be human. The more human they make him, the more heroic he becomes.