Grant Grant Under Fire: A Question

A sad comment really. Knowledgable people need not apply in your CW world apparently.
Dead wrong. People who make serious and manifestly baseless accusations about a respected author's integrity are not people who "apply in my CW world". Either you have failed to access those linked accusations or you think that sort of posting in a public forum is acceptable. I sincerely hope it's the first.
 
It was reviewed in Civil War News and Civil War Times. It's also been reviewed on Good Reads by a published author who posts on this site.
So it was reviewed in two places, neither of which was an academic journal.

Perhaps this discussion helps explain that:
I note you only listed Joseph Rose on the Amazon reviews. There are other reviews.
While reviews on Goodreads and Amazon may satisfy you, no professional historian would rely upon them given the nature of the beast. Neither would a blog review. You are correct that there are other Amazon reader reviews. I guess we should hold them to the same standard you advocate and ask whether the reviewers have done extensive archival research or published in peer-reviewed journals or wrote books. Amazon reviews and Goodreads reviews do not meet the standard of professional journal reviews. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with how they operate. A book review editor solicits someone to do the review. The reviewer is not self-selected. There are professional standards that must be met. That's lacking in the self-selected reviews. Please don't confuse the two types of reviews.

Mr. Rose includes you among the historians who make mistakes, but somehow you escaped the vitriolic explosions he directs at people who disagree with him. Congratulations!

Yes, there are other reader responses to your book on Amazon. They don't rise to the level of reviews as real historians understand the term. If you want to rely on Amazon reviews, go right ahead.
But why not judge for yourself. There was a fellow named Ned Baldwin who used to post on this site who wrote a review of Frank Varney's first book in which he admitted he hadn't finished reading the book. But as useful as reviews can be it's no substitute for actually reading the work itself - especially if one is going to comment on it.
I see that someone else has answered this question. Your comment seems unfair in light of that additional information. That's me judging for myself.
 
A very well-respected individual in the Civil War history community just gave me the wise advice to not get/stay involved in these petty arguments.

But, upon leaving, I can't help myself from noting the post above. In it, LSU Press is accused of "making a quick buck off" of Keegan's name. Then, James McPherson apparently criticizes a fellow historian who "is not at top form in this book," which is "marred by numerous errors that will leave readers confused and misinformed." Next, the poster indicates that Keegan is "a doofus." Lastly, this post is afterward "liked" by six others (at this point in time), most of whom have just been attacking me for being critical of other authors.

It's a good time to go. Bye (although I may stay around, however, to see your cogent and witty replies).
You'll come back. I don't understand why, but you always do.
 
Well, if you can't stand the heat ... especially when you are "under fire" ...

I am intrigued by the person who gave him this advice. If it is who I suspect it is, that's rich with irony.

Not you, Mr. Moore.
Hilarious. Rose has continually led discussions on Grant. Defended his work. One of the few Historians to repeatedly post here.

Obviously he saw no reason to continue with a hand full of people who had no desire to civilly discuss these issues. 'Can't Stand the Heat". Criticism of how he Published his book. Pointing out other Authors conclusions as a "Theory impugning the integrity of another serious historian." Someone else chiming in about their reflections of grade school debate and referencing Nixon and Bill Gates.

So, no. I don't think you Ran Him Off. I suspect he felt as though if he continued. He would be judged as being as Silly as his detractors.

So, I don't blame him.
 
Hilarious. Rose has continually led discussions on Grant. Defended his work. One of the few Historians to repeatedly post here.

Obviously he saw no reason to continue with a hand full of people who had no desire to civilly discuss these issues. 'Can't Stand the Heat". Criticism of how he Published his book. Pointing out other Authors conclusions as a "Theory impugning the integrity of another serious historian." Someone else chiming in about their reflections of grade school debate and referencing Nixon and Bill Gates.

So, no. I don't think you Ran Him Off. I suspect he felt as though if he continued. He would be judged as being as Silly as his detractors.

So, I don't blame him.
"Continually led discussions on Grant?" He has participated in discussions. It's strange to say he led discussions.

I think the fans of Rose's book don't really care if it's accurate or not. They just want to see Grant's historical reputation dragged through the mud.
 
Hilarious. Rose has continually led discussions on Grant. Defended his work. One of the few Historians to repeatedly post here.

Obviously he saw no reason to continue with a hand full of people who had no desire to civilly discuss these issues. 'Can't Stand the Heat". Criticism of how he Published his book. Pointing out other Authors conclusions as a "Theory impugning the integrity of another serious historian." Someone else chiming in about their reflections of grade school debate and referencing Nixon and Bill Gates.

So, no. I don't think you Ran Him Off. I suspect he felt as though if he continued. He would be judged as being as Silly as his detractors.

So, I don't blame him.
Nice try. Mr. Rose quit when people treated him like he treated various authors. It was "hilarious" to see him talk about "petty" disputes when readers see who tended to initiate those petty disputes (while speaking about "great crimes," etc.). He didn't lead discussions about Grant. He led attacks on Grant and people who disagreed with Mr. Rose. He excused or minimized the errors of those who agreed with him (see his Amazon review of Mr. Moore's book) and dismissed his own as inconsequential. It's not a good look to overlook that because someone agrees with Mr. Rose's perspective.

Whether Mr. Rose is a historian (as opposed to a passionate polemicist) is best left for others to debate. I am of the opinion that he was (and is) his own worst enemy. But please don't portray him as a victim of the very treatment he so eagerly dished out. That's demeaning to him. His work is subject to the same criticisms he made of others. That he dismissed as minor mistakes and petty objections matters in his own work that in his mind are major transgressions when committed by his targets, supposedly demonstrating that author's incompetence and lack of integrity, became painfully evident. When he came under fire, he could not stand the heat. He refused to fight it out on this line if it took all summer. He fled after a few weeks (and we hadn't even made it to summer).

Perhaps you've never considered that few reputable historians post here precisely because of the abusive tactics of people such as Mr. Rose. Where are the reviews of his book in professional journals? Where are the conference invites where he'd appear with historians and biographers? Where are the publications that are not self-published?

There is a world outside this discussion board.

In the words of his favorite target, Let. Us. Have. Peace.
 
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Hilarious. Rose has continually led discussions on Grant. Defended his work. One of the few Historians to repeatedly post here.

Obviously he saw no reason to continue with a hand full of people who had no desire to civilly discuss these issues. 'Can't Stand the Heat". Criticism of how he Published his book. Pointing out other Authors conclusions as a "Theory impugning the integrity of another serious historian." Someone else chiming in about their reflections of grade school debate and referencing Nixon and Bill Gates.

So, no. I don't think you Ran Him Off. I suspect he felt as though if he continued. He would be judged as being as Silly as his detractors.

So, I don't blame him.
"Obviously he saw no reason to continue with a hand full of people who had no desire to civilly discuss these issues."

Inform yourself. Read what he posted about another author's integrity and scholarship - and not only did he say it but then doubled down on it. Then read what that author actually wrote in his book about the subject. Then feel free to tell us that what the author actually wrote amounts to "massive" and "ridiculous" "falsehoods" and "distortions" to "cover up" for Grant on April 6.

If you think that is "civilly discussing" that author's book you are operating with one impressive double standard.

"Hilarious"
 
Nice try. Mr. Rose quit when people treated him like he treated various authors. It was "hilarious" to see him talk about "petty" disputes when readers see who tended to initiate those petty disputes (while speaking about "great crimes." etc.). He didn't lead discussions about Grant. He led attacks on Grant and people who disagreed with Mr. Rose. He excused or minimized the errors of those who agreed with him (see his Amazon review of Mr. Moore's book) and dismissed his own as inconsequential. It's not a good look to overlook that because someone agrees with Mr. Rose's perspective.

Whether Mr. Rose is a historian (as opposed to a passionate polemicist) is best left for others to debate. I am of the opinion that he was (and is) his own worst enemy. But please don't portray him as a victim of the very treatment he so eagerly dished out. That's demeaning to him. His work is subject to the same criticisms he made of others. That he dismissed as minor mistakes and petty objections matters in his own work that in his mind are major transgressions when committed by his targets, supposedly demonstrating that author's incompetence and lack of integrity, became painfully evident. When he came under fire, he could not stand the heat. He refused to fight it out on this line if it took all summer. He fled after a few weeks (and we hadn't even made it to summer).

Perhaps you've never considered that few reputable historians post here precisely because of the abusive tactics of people such as Mr. Rose. Where are the reviews of his book in professional journals? Where are the conference invites where he'd appear with historians and biographers? Where are the publications that are not self-published?

There is a world outside this discussion board.

In the words of his favorite target, Let. Us. Have. Peace.
What also bears mention is that there are authors who are also members on this site and who never engage in the sort of public attack on a peer's scholarship and academic integrity as unfortunately occurred in these threads. Likewise, those authors carefully refrain from putting up posts to the effect that any other author who disagrees with their assessments and conclusions must be guilty of making "historical errors" and that their own interpretation is the definitively correct solution. They are well-regarded and respected historians for a reason.
 
There are many sources on Wiki. Lots more than I have seen on this thread.

Nobody on this thread has posted footnotes. On real history forums like Emerging Civil War the footnotes are some times longer than the post. That is what actual scholastic publications are like. On CWT we are having conversations amongst amateur enthusiasts, nothing more.

Which is why we are amusing ourselves poking at egos instead of the June lead up to the three hammer blows that destroyed the CSA on July 4th 1863.
 
If you check the muster dates of those units, most of them mustered before McClernand arrived. McClernand recruited about a division of troops if I remember correctly.

But to me the real story isn't Grant vs McClernand but this: why were Lincoln, Stanton, and Halleck promoting internal backstabbing with men's lives on the line.
General Halleck may have disagreed with President Lincoln about McClernand. Stanton and the rest of the cabinet developed a solution and Grant seemed to get other advice which prompted him to be patient.
 
Nobody on this thread has posted footnotes. On real history forums like Emerging Civil War the footnotes are some times longer than the post. That is what actual scholastic publications are like. On CWT we are having conversations amongst amateur enthusiasts, nothing more.

Which is why we are amusing ourselves poking at egos instead of the June lead up to the three hammer blows that destroyed the CSA on July 4th 1863.
I'm fine with posters supporting statements with sources. In fact, it can be informative to members who are simply looking for information about any number of topics. My objection is when sources are paraphrased in a misleading way, distorted, or "interpreted" in a manner that is plainly inaccurate when they are checked. If the post is on a topic the readers is familiar with, they can also determine whether relevant sources have been selectively omitted.

One good thing about Wikipedia is that you can generally see if a statement has a source, first. If it does, you can see what the source is. If it's accessible you can see whether the statement is accurate. I haven't seen a source on Wikipedia for the proposition that "Grant stole McClernand's army".
 
I'm fine with posters supporting statements with sources. In fact, it can be informative to members who are simply looking for information about any number of topics. My objection is when sources are paraphrased in a misleading way, distorted, or "interpreted" in a manner that is plainly inaccurate when they are checked. If the post is on a topic the readers is familiar with, they can also determine whether relevant sources have been selectively omitted.

One good thing about Wikipedia is that you can generally see if a statement has a source, first. If it does, you can see what the source is. If it's accessible you can see whether the statement is accurate. I haven't seen a source on Wikipedia for the proposition that "Grant stole McClernand's army".

The reason for that is, of course, it isn't factual. It was the U.S. Army, McClernand don't "own" an army. What is missing is Lincoln's need for a War Democrat & was an excellent recruiter. It was politics… Ed Bearss makes all that very clear. Absolutely nobody wanted McClernand put in command of anything.

The lesson being, reading three paragraphs on Wikipedia is no substitute for reading Ed Bearss' three volume history of the Vicksburg Campaign.
 
The reason for that is, of course, it isn't factual. It was the U.S. Army, McClernand don't "own" an army. What is missing is Lincoln's need for a War Democrat & was an excellent recruiter. It was politics… Ed Bearss makes all that very clear. Absolutely nobody wanted McClernand put in command of anything.

The lesson being, reading three paragraphs on Wikipedia is no substitute for reading Ed Bearss' three volume history of the Vicksburg Campaign.
And President Lincoln seems to have played it correctly. McClernand obtained a new command under Banks and he McClernand stayed out of politics in 1864, which probably was the goal. Then President Lincoln won the Illinois EC votes in November.
 
I'm fine with posters supporting statements with sources. In fact, it can be informative to members who are simply looking for information about any number of topics. My objection is when sources are paraphrased in a misleading way, distorted, or "interpreted" in a manner that is plainly inaccurate when they are checked. If the post is on a topic the readers is familiar with, they can also determine whether relevant sources have been selectively omitted.

One good thing about Wikipedia is that you can generally see if a statement has a source, first. If it does, you can see what the source is. If it's accessible you can see whether the statement is accurate. I haven't seen a source on Wikipedia for the proposition that "Grant stole McClernand's army".
We are not writing books on this website. But as one poster stated, an extraordinary claim should be supported by a solid citation. But citations are sometimes mislabeled and sometimes mis quoted. The only sanction here is a loss of credibility.
 

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