Gettysburg not a decisive turning point?

[CavRTO]

What was the turning point in the war to the average confederate soldier? Clearly it wasn't just one battle as most of you agree. But there had to be a turning point to the rank and file that the gig was up. Continuous service in spite of the realization of no chance of victory seems to be in large part because of a southern white superiority complex as well as the thought of shame and humiliation if one gave up. However that last part began to crumble as more and more men deserted.

 

[krkey1]

I suspect the turning point was when letters came in from their loved ones saying they had no food and their children were hungry.

 

[Rhea Cole]

What was the turning point in the war to the average confederate soldier? Clearly it wasn't just one battle as most of you agree. But there had to be a turning point to the rank and file that the gig was up. Continuous service in spite of the realization of no chance of victory seems to be in large part because of a southern white superiority complex as well as the thought of shame and humiliation if one gave up. However that last part began to crumble as more and more men deserted.

That is a good question. Parolees from FTs Henry & Donelson & Vicksburg refused to return to the ranks in droves. Desertion by North Carolina troops drove Lee to draconian measures. In the West, whenever their local region was lost, Tennesseans would desert. Lincoln's policy that encouraged deserters to "swallow the dog" & go home on parole. When Little Rock fell, during the retreat officers woke up to find empty camps. During the Tullahoma Campaign Bragg shot several officers who ignored or even encouraged their men to desert. When Hood took over the Army of Tennessee companies held meetings, voted & crossed the line en masse. Lee positioned regiments that were leaking deserters across from USCTI held positions because they did not take prisoners alive.

Jefferson Davis made a speech where he stated that 2/3rds of the CSA army was AWOL. To directly address the question, there wasn't a single instance of desertion that could be called a turning point. CSA soldiers deserted from start to finish in large numbers & in unrelated situations.

 

[wausaubob]

Cedar Creek in the Shenandoah Valley, the battle of Franklin in Tennessee, and Five Forks in Virginia. It took a mountain of evidence to get the Confederate soldier to accept defeat.

 

[CavRTO]

That is a good question. Parolees from FTs Henry & Donelson & Vicksburg refused to return to the ranks in droves. Desertion by North Carolina troops drove Lee to draconian measures. In the West, whenever their local region was lost, Tennesseans would desert. Lincoln's policy that encouraged deserters to "swallow the dog" & go home on parole. When Little Rock fell, during the retreat officers woke up to find empty camps. During the Tullahoma Campaign Bragg shot several officers who ignored or even encouraged their men to desert. When Hood took over the Army of Tennessee companies held meetings, voted & crossed the line en masse. Lee positioned regiments that were leaking deserters across from USCTI held positions because they did not take prisoners alive.

Jefferson Davis made a speech where he stated that 3/4th of the CSA army was AWOL. To directly address the question, there wasn't a single instance of desertion that could be called a turning point. CSA soldiers deserted from start to finish in large numbers & in unrelated situations.

Thank you. I just learned a lot.

 

[CavRTO]

Midway and Stalingrad can be considered turning points because up until then the Japanese and Germans were winning their wars and after them they were losing (though some would argue Guadalcanal is a more fitting turning point). But the southern rebels were never winning their war; indeed from early on they were (with the exception of the 1862 invasion of Kentucky) steadily losing it.

Actually, it was the Soviet offensive outside of Moscow. Reading several books based on eyewitness testimony and Soviet and German analyses is a real eye opener. Stalingrad was an an extremely heroic stand and helped win the war but wasn't the turning point in the East as some have claimed. Stalingrad destroyed one German army group. The Soviet Moscow offensive destroyed or rendered several German armies skeletal remains of their former selves. The loss of men and material far exceeded Stalingrad.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Send Longstreet to the Tennessee theater when he still had 3 divisions and before his divisions had been chewed up at Gettysburg. And pull Johnston's force away from Mississippi and combine it Bragg's people. And do it before the US captures all of Tennessee.

I like the concept, what is the plan for feeding all those men & animals? Bragg couldn't feed the ones he had. Of course, the command structure would be the 1860 equivalent of a long car trip with six gymnast girls who all have their periods coming on… believe me, I know what I am talking about. No kidding, I really don't think that there was anything short of an alliance with the Klingon Empire that could have saved the Western Confederacy from itself… of course the Klingons would have killed them all first.

 

[wausaubob]

I like the concept, what is the plan for feeding all those men & animals? Bragg couldn't feed the ones he had. Of course, the command structure would be the 1860 equivalent of a long car trip with six gymnast girls who all have their periods coming on… believe me, I know what I am talking about. No kidding, I really don't think that there was anything short of an alliance with the Klingon Empire that could have saved the Western Confederacy from itself… of course the Klingons would have killed them all first.

The Klingons all spoke English. I assume they would be ladies and gentlemen regarding the Confederates.

 

[Irishtom29]

Actually, it was the Soviet offensive outside of Moscow. Reading several books based on eyewitness testimony and Soviet and German analyses is a real eye opener. Stalingrad was an an extremely heroic stand and helped win the war but wasn't the turning point in the East as some have claimed. Stalingrad destroyed one German army group. The Soviet Moscow offensive destroyed or rendered several German armies skeletal remains of their former selves. The loss of men and material far exceeded Stalingrad.

Are you talking the Soviet offensive in the winter of 41-42? I considered that. Regardless, either it or Stalingrad illustrate the point that there was a time when Germany was winning, unlike the southern rebellion.

 

[CavRTO]

Are you talking the Soviet offensive in the winter of 41-42? I considered that. Regardless, either it or Stalingrad illustrate the point that there was a time when Germany was winning, unlike the southern rebellion.

Yes, I was referring to the Soviet winter 41-42 offensive. Like the German general staff and Hitler, the south woefully underestimated the north's capabilities and dreamily overestimated their own. In the vernacular: **** poor planning by both.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Jefferson Davis made a speech where he stated that 3/4th of the CSA army was AWOL.

While desertion was a problem over the course of the war, IIRC Davis' speeches bemoaning desertion were primarily in early 1864. His 3/4 claim seems excessive at that point, but a year later would have probably been accurate.

 

[DeeTV]

Davis' Macon speech of Sept. 23 1864. He states two thirds (not 3/4) were absent including sick and wounded:
"...two-thirds of our men are absent - some sick, some wounded, but most of them absent without leave." I believe he was
speaking specifically about the Army of Tennessee.

 

[Tom Hughes]

I think the combination of Gettysburg AND Vicksburg resulted in turning points of the war (Eastern and Western theatres simultaneously) since both resulted in major Confederate defeats in July of 1863. Gettysburg was not THE turning point in and of itself.

 

[Rhea Cole]

While desertion was a problem over the course of the war, IIRC Davis' speeches bemoaning desertion were primarily in early 1864. His 3/4 claim seems excessive at that point, but a year later would have probably been accurate.

It was 2/3rd, not 3/4ths… not that 9 percentage points make any material difference. As you say, Tullahoma / Chattanooga & Vicksburg Campaigns made those percentages moot.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Davis' Macon speech of Sept. 23 1864. He states two thirds (not 3/4) were absent including sick and wounded:
"...two-thirds of our men are absent - some sick, some wounded, but most of them absent without leave." I believe he was
speaking specifically about the Army of Tennessee.

Thanks for the edit, I corrected the citation. The theme of the speech was that if AWOL's returned to the ranks, the CSA could prevail. His reference was to the CSA situation across the board. Tullahoma / Chattanooga, Vicksburg & Little Rock Campaigns created a massive wave of men leaving the ranks or crossing the lines. During the retreat from Little Rock, entire regiments disappeared during the night. The CSA army was hemorrhaging deserters wherever it was.

 

[wausaubob]

Thanks for the edit, I corrected the citation. The theme of the speech was that if AWOL's returned to the ranks, the CSA could prevail. His reference was to the CSA situation across the board. Tullahoma / Chattanooga, Vicksburg & Little Rock Campaigns created a massive wave of men leaving the ranks or crossing the lines. During the retreat from Little Rock, entire regiments disappeared during the night. The CSA army was hemorrhaging deserters wherever it was.

The original 7 cotton secessionist states did not have enough white men in them to sustain the war, despite very high participation rates.
By the end of 1863 the US had substantial positions in all 8 of the states that had permitted slavery but were not in the original secessionist movement. Starting and fighting a war based on political decision that only had the support of a slim majority is going to involve some difficulties.

 

[Rhea Cole]

The original 7 cotton secessionist states did not enough white men in them to sustain the war, despite very high participation rates.
By the end of 1863 the US had substantial positions in all 8 of the states that had permitted slavery but were not in the original secessionist movement. Starting and fighting a war based on political decision that only had the support of a slim majority is going to involve some difficulties.

Add to that the self liberating labor pool that was a major force multiplier for the Union & the numbers become dire indeed.

 

[wausaubob]

Add to that the self liberating labor pool that was a major force multiplier for the Union & the numbers become dire indeed.

A nation enforcing slavery cannot afford to lose the territory. The invader is either going to take the slaves or emancipate them. And enlisting freed slaves was not a new thing.

 

[Rhea Cole]

A nation enforcing slavery cannot afford to lose the territory. The invader is either going to take the slaves or emancipate them. And enlisting freed slaves was not a new thing.

Welcome to Davis' worst nightmare.

 

[Library Lady]

The Klingons all spoke English. I assume they would be ladies and gentlemen regarding the Confederates.

I looked through my copy of The Klingon Way: A Warrior's Guide by Marc Okrand, and I'm convinced the Klingons would have considered the Confederates a long-lost twin brother separated at birth.