Gettysburg not a decisive turning point?

Broch

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Jun 7, 2022
I read an article today in the Civil War Monitor about Presidential speeches at Gettysburg which contains the statement that "most historians argue that Gettysburg was not a decisive turning point in the war", noting that Lee was able to "retreat without harassment" and the war continued for 2 years. I am curious what others think of this opinion. Does it accurately express a current historical perspective?
 
I read an article today in the Civil War Monitor about Presidential speeches at Gettysburg which contains the statement that "most historians argue that Gettysburg was not a decisive turning point in the war", noting that Lee was able to "retreat without harassment" and the war continued for 2 years. I am curious what others think of this opinion. Does it accurately express a current historical perspective?
I may venture a guess... I think the sentiment that Gettysburg really wasn't a "turning point" comes from the realization that by summer 1863 there was no possible way for the rebels to win the war without a Hail Mary Victory, which they didn't get. From the outset the US continually occupied territory under rebel control - on the east coast, along the Mississippi & in the west, and along the gulf. Only in the postage stamp between Richmond and Washington DC did the rebels see any success worth mentioning. Gettysburg can be more accurately seen as a last gasp and confirmation than a turning point.

Vicksburg was likely more important than Gettysburg, as was the capture of New Orleans. Antietam was likely more important. Calling Gettysburg a "turning point" betrays a thought that prior to the engagement the rebels were "winning"... that isn't the case.

Welcome to CWT!
 
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I've never understood the popular notion that it was the decisive turning point, as opposed to one of several important turning points. The concept would be that until July 1863 the CSA had a reasonable prospect of winning the war and that after Gettysburg that prospect was flipped 180 degrees. I don't believe that's a remotely reasonable conclusion from a strategic perspective.
 
Vicksburg was the actual turning point.
I don't subscribe to the concept of single turning points unless the opponent gives up the war. But I think Vicksburg was definitely more important (in combo with Port Hudson). Following that the CSA was irrevocably split, and the Mississippi was unavailable to any extent for commerce. Gettysburg turned back an invasion. Important, obviously, but also limited, obviously.
 
I read an article today in the Civil War Monitor about Presidential speeches at Gettysburg which contains the statement that "most historians argue that Gettysburg was not a decisive turning point in the war", noting that Lee was able to "retreat without harassment" and the war continued for 2 years. I am curious what others think of this opinion. Does it accurately express a current historical perspective?
Would you share the article you are referring to? The claim "noting that Lee was able to "retreat without harassment" seems peculiar as a qualifier for it not being a turning point.
 
I read an article today in the Civil War Monitor about Presidential speeches at Gettysburg which contains the statement that "most historians argue that Gettysburg was not a decisive turning point in the war", noting that Lee was able to "retreat without harassment" and the war continued for 2 years. I am curious what others think of this opinion. Does it accurately express a current historical perspective?

I would say the idea that Lee "retreating without harassment" is inaccurate. The Union cavalry doggedly pursued him, but Stuart's cavalry did a good job holding them off.

I think the idea that Gettysburg was a turning point is derived from three things.

1. It was Lee's first real defeat with the Army of North Virginia.

2. Lincoln's famous speech at Gettysburg brought extra importance and attention to the battle.

3. Of all the battles of the war, Gettysburg is the one most What If'd by The Lost Cost. What if Stuart wasn't away? What if Stonewall Jackson was still alive? What if Ewell had attacked Cemetery Hill? What if Longstreet had been prompt and obedient? What if the bombardment had been more effective? And then there's the mythologizied High Water Mark. The Lost Cause narrative defined the popular understanding of the war for a long time and thus raised Gettysburg to preeminent status.

Modern scholarship (the last 40-50 years has definitely turned away from the idea that Gettysburg was the turning point, perhaps even a turning point, of the war. Studies have compared how Confederate soldiers wrote about Gettysburg in the late summer of 1863 vs how they wrote about Vicksburg, and the evidence is clear the latter had greater impact on Confederate morale.

I think there was also a study that indicated Chancellorsville was more devastating to the Confederate army than Gettysburg because the quantity and quality of officers lost.

In terms of winning the war, Lee certainly hoped the achieve a dramatic victory against the Army of the Potomac, but this was as motivated as much by the frustrations of Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville as anything. There's also a substantial logistical element to the campaign (see Kent Masterson Brown's book for a good study of the subject). Antietam was before the Emancipation Proclamation, shortly before Union midterms, on the heels of Lee seemingly driving McClellan from the gates of Richmond then winning a dramatic victory at Second Manassas over Pope, simultaneous to the Kentucky Campaign. Antietam was a much greater turning point than Gettysburg: stopping Confederate momentum, influencing elections and government policy.

Jeffrey William Hunt's recent works show how much the Army of Northern Virginia recovered its numerical strength within a few months after Gettysburg and how Lee was still able to launch an offensive to throw Meade back toward Washington (Bristoe Campaign). Lee was also above to vigorously block Meade's offensive maneuvers that fall, even after detaching Longstreet.

The Overland Campaign in 1864 doesn't play out like it did because of Gettysburg in 1863, but rather because of Grant and his dogged determination to keep the initiative - the very thing Lee had tried to do through most of 1862.

In summary, I would say if I had to pick one turning point of the war it's Antietam, but if I could pick multiple turning points I would say:

1. Antietam

2. Vicksburg (for obvious reasons)

3. Chattanooga
  • squanders the Confederate victory at Chickamauga
  • was the last chance for the Confederates to win in the Western Theater; from this point forward the numbers are overwhelming
  • replaces Bragg with Johnston, and places Hood in the Army of Tennessee
  • elevates Grant to General-in-Chief
4. Overland Campaign: takes the initiative from Lee, never to be regained, and forces the ANV into a position where they are slowly ground down to ineffectiveness
 
Yeah, I would agree that Gettysburg was not "a decisive turning point in the war" in strictly military terms. However, it did take on an outsized symbolic importance in the post-war years, and in retrospect represented a kind of "last chance" for the Confederates to win a settlement of the war.

The war was lost for the Confederacy sometime in 1862. I'm not sure when, exactly, but I tend to the view that it was lost at the Battle of Antietam.

The historian James McPherson does a nice spot on the difference between a 'turning point' and a 'deflection point.' See https://www.c-span.org/video/?307917-111/james-mcpherson-battle-antietam
 
This turning point business comes of eastern centric thinking. I think there was no turning point; the United States was on a slow and hard road to suppressing the rebellion from the winter of 61-62 on, with the American moves on the Western rivers. Out in Illinois we understand this. ;-) The rebel's invasion of Kentucky in late 1862 was the biggest disruption to this western progress but the rebellion was never on a road to victory, never.

There's also the coastal war to consider in which the United States made generally steady progress.
 
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In popular terms, it could be said that Gettysburg was in fact the "high water mark" of the Confederacy. Its military significance can be debated, but in retrospect, it probably represented a psychological turning point for the southern cause.
 
This turning point business comes of eastern centric thinking. I think there was no turning point; the United States was on a slow and hard road to suppressing the rebellion from the winter of 61-62 on, with the American moves on the Western rivers. Out in Illinois we understand this. ;-) The rebel's invasion of Kentucky in late 1862 was the biggest disruption to this western progress but the rebellion was never on a road to victory, never.

There's also the coastal war to consider in which the United States made generally steady progress.
Agree wholeheartedly that Gettysburg as turning point reflects eastern centric thinking. The war was well on its way to being lost in the west in 1862. I think the High Water Mark of the CSA was actually First Bull Run. Most everything after that with few exceptions lead directly to defeat. I think many like to romanticize the war to make it look like a close run thing, when the reality is that the South was continually ground down over time and never came close to being on the road to victory.
 
Gettysburg as the end all & be all of the Civil War was a product of Jubal Early & the Southern Historical Society. The elevation of Lee, Jackson & Joe Johnston to the status of military demigods was also a product of decades of the SHS's counter factual narrative. Superior Southern manhood was overwhelmed by hoards of deluded emigrants only fighting for money is another one of their tropes. Needless to say, the right to hold other human beings as property was, in the SHS version of events, a vague, peripheral issue. It was an amorphous "state right that the morally superior exemplars of white manhood fought for.

Lee's "invasion" of Pennsylvania was an unsupported raid that terminated in defeat at a meeting engagement at Nowhere, Pennsylvania forty one miles north of the Potomac River. Those are the facts. Compare that with the Tullahoma Campaign that has not even been mentioned in this thread.

June 28, 1863, Rosecrans' Army of the Cumberland faced Bragg's Army of Tennessee over a front stretching almost 60 miles wide, east to west. At the end of day one, his front was over 70 miles wide. In a matter of weeks, his army controlled all of Middle Tennessee & the absolutely strategically vital rail & mineral riches of Chattanooga 100 rail miles from his starting position. That is what a turning point looks like… but it is just a point. Campaigns, not turning points win wars.

From where Lincoln sat, at the end of the fighting season in December 1863, his army was victorious in a campaign that stretched from Cumberland Gap to Knoxville to Chattanooga to Vicksburg to Little Rock to Port Hudson, Lincoln's Campaign of 1863 effectively destroyed any avenue for CSA victory.

As Lincoln contemplated his war map in January 1864, it was a matter of how & when the war would be won, not if it could be won. That is what a real turning point looks like.
 
I read an article today in the Civil War Monitor about Presidential speeches at Gettysburg which contains the statement that "most historians argue that Gettysburg was not a decisive turning point in the war", noting that Lee was able to "retreat without harassment" and the war continued for 2 years. I am curious what others think of this opinion. Does it accurately express a current historical perspective?
The part about the retreat is complete and utter nonsense.
 
Yeah, I would agree that Gettysburg was not "a decisive turning point in the war" in strictly military terms. However, it did take on an outsized symbolic importance in the post-war years, and in retrospect represented a kind of "last chance" for the Confederates to win a settlement of the war.

The war was lost for the Confederacy sometime in 1862. I'm not sure when, exactly, but I tend to the view that it was lost at the Battle of Antietam.

The historian James McPherson does a nice spot on the difference between a 'turning point' and a 'deflection point.' See https://www.c-span.org/video/?307917-111/james-mcpherson-battle-antietam
As between Antietam and Gettysburg, they were both nothing more than the repulse of Confederate invasions with the ensuing escape of the ANV - wars aren't won that way where winning or losing involves the survival of the CSA. But, unlike Gettysburg, Antietam directly resulted in issuance of the EP and that was a significant contribution to the ultimate victory.
 
As between Antietam and Gettysburg, they were both nothing more than the repulse of Confederate invasions with the ensuing escape of the ANV - wars aren't won that way where winning or losing involves the survival of the CSA. But, unlike Gettysburg, Antietam directly resulted in issuance of the EP and that was a significant contribution to the ultimate victory.
I agree entirely. It is campaigns that win wars. Because he had no logistical support, Lee would have had to return to his base. As it was, his entire wagon train was filled with wounded. There was no source for remounts. It wasn't until he reached the Potomac crossing that any artillery ammunition arrived. It is hard to define what, given the logistical realities, the definition of a victory would have been.
 

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